How Can Sustainable Fashion Help Health the Planet? featuring Susanne Ducker, Founder Foxlilie Studio

In today's episode, Elizabeth and Susanne dive into the world of slow fashion versus fast fashion, exploring the profound impact our clothing choices have on both the environment and our well-being.  They discuss how fast fashion contributes to pollution, waste, and unethical labor practices, while slow fashion prioritizes sustainability, craftsmanship, and ethical production.  Learn why choosing local, handmade apparel made with natural fibers is not only better for the planet, but also for your health. 

Tune in for an eye-opening conversation on making more conscious, sustainable fashion choices! 

Susanne, the founder of Foxlilie and sustainable fashion for women and kids, designed with an earth-friendly purpose—to keep clothing in our closets and out of landfills. She was ahead of the environmental curve—or so she thought. She was an avid recycler, carefully sorting glass bottles while out shopping at the mall. This was back when recycling wasn’t common, and most public places, including malls, didn’t even have recycling bins. But she was determined to do her part. Yet for all her efforts, she never stopped to think about what was inside her shopping bags. She had no idea that the very clothes she was buying were contributing to one of the biggest environmental crises of our time. Fast fashion was—and still is—filling our landfills at an unfathomable rate. In

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Transcript

UNKNOWN: 1:17

Okay.

SPEAKER_02: 1:19

Welcome back to today's episode of Unapologetic Living. I'm Elizabeth Elliott, and I am your hostess. I have the pleasure of speaking to Suzanne Ducker today. Suzanne is the founder of a sustainable clothing brand, Fox Lily Studio. So I... Appreciate this, as I know that it's so important. And with all the newer information, even in the headlines today, making, you know, mainstream headlines, it's the microplastics in our clothing, which is just one piece of your work. Or just, you know, like what maybe inspired you personally. But I know that wasn't just it. So I would love to hand it over to you and just hear, welcome, welcome, and hear what did inspire you to create your own line of clothing. I think it's awesome.

SPEAKER_00: 2:15

Yes. Hi. Happy to be here. Um, so I always love to talk to start with this story when I was a teenager. Um, and I would, you know, I'm a product of the eighties and nineties, teenage years, and I would go to the mall and shop with my mom and I'd always diligently recycle the glass bottle for my Snapple drink. And while I was at the mall shopping, um, At the time, this made me really environmentally forward and ahead of the curve, I guess you could say, because you couldn't recycle everywhere back then. Except the irony is that I had no idea what was in my shopping bag of clothes. And so over time, I realized how much waste the fashion industry produces. And I also want to point out this idea that clothing used to be made to last. But in the last 20 years, fashion has shifted us into an environmental disaster with most clothes. And this is a real shocker when I learned this. Most clothes fall apart after just 7 to 10 wears, which is crazy, right? So... I started Fox Lily, I guess, to take the guesswork out of sustainable shopping and prioritizing durability, ethical production, and natural materials so people could have clothing that lasts without having to do the endless research on what that looks like, right? You could go to the mall or wherever today, right? And not have to look at labels, which is something I actually do. And it kind of takes the fun out of shopping. I look at the labels because I want to know what's in, what fabric are they using? And I could get into, you know, all the details about that. But I also want to know where it's made. So, you know, there's this thing called slow fashion, which is, basically is the opposite of fast fashion, right? And a lot of people, you know, I don't always, I do often get people are like, what is that? What does that mean? And, you know, it basically is this movement towards prioritizing quality, sustainability, and ethical production. And it encourages thoughtful consumption by, designing timeless, durable pieces that last rather than like chasing fleeting sort of trends. And it also considers fair wages, responsible sourcing, and reduces waste throughout the production cycle. The other key to this is it's made here. It's made here in the US, right? It's made closer to home. I don't know. I don't have the numbers, but the carbon footprint that we rely on for clothes today being, and that is like the most production being made in Asia, right? It's huge because it has to, everything is shipped back and forth. And that's, you know, on shipping containers, that's, through air travel, that's all these elements that contribute to this carbon footprint. And we could be doing so much more of it here. So that's the other piece to it. And then fast fashion, on the other hand, focuses on this like rapid production, low cost, which leads us to this like overconsumption, exploitive labor conditions and the environmental harm. that comes from that due to the excess of water, synthetic materials, and high carbon emissions, as I was just referring to.

SPEAKER_02: 6:39

Yeah, I was watching the Amazon Buy. I was just looking it up. Buy Now. Well, it's about Amazon. It's a Netflix documentary. And it was the first, I mean, you know, I'm not a big fan of the fast fashion either. And I remember learning about the quality of the materials put on my, you know, that I might wear or even expose my children to when I was attending a Waldorf school. I hadn't thought too much about it until we went there and they are big on woolens. and wool and silk and 100% cotton and organic preferably. I also learned, I think, what a lot of the cotton today is treated in formaldehyde. Well, so many of our textiles are laden with chemicals. And I started to do my best with buying what I could afford back then. And when I couldn't, That was one of the big reasons I started. I mean, I like going to thrift stores when I was in high school, but I really started spending more time in thrift stores so that I could get clothing that had already outgassed, preferably 100% cotton. Yeah. But more recently, I teach yoga and Pilates and a lot of that stuff. Right. Your Lululemon. I don't have any Lululemon that I've ever bought. I've been gifted Lululemon. But a lot of the athletic wear is, you know, synthetic fibers. And I know as I start to toss and replace, I will definitely be buying something different. That is more sustainable. And I know I found like, I like, I really found that I liked the Pact brand of organic cotton clothing. But

SPEAKER_00: 9:02

a lot more in that vein, the athletic brand.

SPEAKER_02: 9:04

Yeah. And then I've seen some wool out there, some products and hemp and bamboo. So I know there's a lot more available today. It seems like that. Well, at least it comes across my feed because the algorithm knows that that's there. Those are all items I might be interested in fabrics I might be interested in. But I remember looking at my son was four, three and a half. And he wanted a jersey of his favorite player, that jerseys brand. And it was a University of Louisville basketball player. And I mean, I was so rigid in my thought processes back then that I was not buying that. I was not going to buy the jerseys brand. And so I did buy him a red tank top. And I bought some puffy paint and we made our own And I still have it to this day. And then later, though, when he was maybe around 10, we finally like caved and bought the jerseys brand jersey. Right. He did not want to be that different anymore. And he asked me and this came from Santa Claus. He said, why? Why does this say? Made in China. Yeah. When he looked at it, he was aware enough around, you know, and you're right. There's a lot of that fast fashion made over in our Asian countries and, and, and, and, and it's pushed everywhere. These young girls, you see it, a lot of young girls that sheen. Yeah. Yeah. But in the documentary, I was blown away at how much accumulation of just clothing. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 10:58

I mean, it's, we are, we live in a world that's dominated by fast fashion today. Um, and it's created, you know, the cycle of overproduction, but waste, right? So much waste in the oceans. Yeah. Yeah. And, and, you know, just to give you a number, please, you know, I, I, um, It's hard to clarify what percentage of this is clothing, for example, but 85% of textiles end up in landfills in the U.S. So, you know, you can do the math yourself. You don't have to really know. I mean, if we're making so much, so many clothes, and, you know, there's massive cheap fast rate and our clothing is breaking down at you know an average of seven to ten wears right or it's or it's failing it's falling apart right um it's the clothing isn't the how it doesn't really matter how much of it is clothing it's it's a problem and it's something we can do we can change um You know, so I'm I'm very much a environmentalist and and care about, you know, the future with climate change and sometimes get really like discouraged and down about the sort of enormity of this problem that our kids are facing. And, you know, generations after that. But this is an area that we could do something and we could do something today. And not only can we do something today, we can bring, you know, jobs back to this country in this area. So, you know, there's value on so many levels. And then when you talk about like the stuff that's in our oceans, right, like I just immediately think of, you know, the plastic bottle island, right, that exists today. our ocean today in our oceans um and that's because a lot of clothing is made from those like jersey materials you're talking about you know um even a cotton t-shirt today will have a percentage of polyester which is basically plastic polyester is plastic um and it's synthetic and it creates um microplastics and they don't decompose, you know, they, they, they, so you're not only sending all this volume of, of textiles and clothing to our landfills, but you're sending stuff that's full of microplastics that can't break down for hundreds and hundreds of years. So, um, I am sure there's a math equation too. Cause I, I, I get that like, uh, well, your, your story about your son, right? Like I have a son too, and he loves, you know, uh, the Baltimore Orioles, for example, and baseball team. And he has all the gear, you know, and his, his grandparents sent him, you know, a new t-shirt or a new hat or new shorts. And, you know, and I just have to go, okay, you know, and I, cause I know it's made of polyester. Um, and we got to start somewhere. But I'm sure there is a mathematical equation that shows, and what I was going to, let me sort of back it up a little bit, because what I was going to say is that the clothing costs more, right? Because you're paying a living wage, you're producing it here, you're not producing it cheaply, you're not making... mass quantities. So your unit price is probably a little higher. You're also spending a higher dollar on the cost of fabric because I only buy fabrics that are sustainable. So organic cotton, sustainable cotton. I use a lot of linen, a lot of hemp and some bamboo and And then there's also a new material called Lyocell, which it comes from wood pulp. But, you know, these are all fabrics that are not as cheap as polyester. So that's another cost. And so my clothes, they cost more, but they're built to last. And so going back to my mathematical equation, I would imagine that there is a savings there. Because if you're buying something for$25, let's just say, and it breaks down or falls apart in seven to 10 wears, then in two years, you probably are spending$200 on one item of mine just to get the same thing. Do you know what I mean? Mm-hmm. And so what are we, or maybe you're even saving money because if the clothing is built to last, you could have it for many, many years, right? Absolutely. So there's probably a cost saving, I'm sure. And I probably should run the math on that because it'd be great to share that with people. The

SPEAKER_02: 16:39

thing, and I think what, I think part of just, you know, with marketing and advertising, Right? The trends may deter people from, right? That is your classic well-produced product, right? Or whatever piece of apparel, dress. Yeah. Won't fit the... most recent fashion trend, which I think is why we see so much of this disposal, right? The kids, the girls, the ladies, and it's not just ladies. I think there are a lot more men into fashion today than ever before as well. And you see, I mean, I don't know if you've been on TikTok or Instagram, but my daughter orders from Sheen. I would be lying if I told you otherwise.

UNKNOWN: 17:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 17:43

And one of the things that they would do is they would literally get their order. These girls get orders and then they show you their haul on social media. Hundreds of items for like, oh, I got it for 90 bucks, mom.

SPEAKER_00: 18:01

Right,

SPEAKER_02: 18:02

right. You know, I said, Malin, do you understand where this is coming from and where this is going to end up? You know, and so it's not for lack of education, at least in my home.

SPEAKER_00: 18:13

Yeah. And it's, that's an area. I mean, that is, um, you know, when I think about the demographics of my customers, that's the customer I'm, I haven't cracked the code on yet. Right. Um, I, you know, I sell kids clothes, so I'm trying to get them early, but you know, as, as a mom, I know, and I have a son who's 16 and I don't buy him clothes anymore. He, he's, you know, and we just try to do as much sustainable as we can. But I get it. I get it. And so it is like you're sort of building out this new way of thinking about clothing. And the one area I will say that I see the teenagers gravitating towards is the vintage market. And so maybe that's how you start to to change them and their way of thinking. Um, but I, you know, mostly work with women who are 30 and up, you know, that's who I, that's who I dress. That's who buys these clothes. Um, but you know, it's, it's the more we get this idea out there and, you know, the hope is that the more it will take hold. Right. Um, And the more we put pressure on sort of the bigger sort of awareness piece around what's happening environmentally, maybe, you know, there's a reason to make the switch. And then the other thing I'll just say is that I really try... I mean, I wouldn't say my clothes are not necessarily like super, super trendy, right? They're... designed to be versatile and timeless and like um dress up dress down I like to say so like a like dresses come to mind um because how many of us women have you know a closet full of dresses that we wore to some special event and have worn once and never worn again right yeah like yeah I still, they're like little works of art. So I save them, those dresses, but that's not how I want to do the day to day. And so I try to build dresses that are really, can serve as many functions. And I would say the two strongest adjectives that I like to put with the clothes is comfort and style and versatility too, because like I have this one dress that's got a little cap sleeve and And it's a midi or sort of slightly maxi sort of length dress. And it's comfortable because it's got this kind of full, you know, tiered skirt. And I tell customers all the time, they don't have to just wear it in the summer. They can wear it in the winter with a sweater over it, a jacket, or you can even wear like a fitted shirt underneath. the little cap sleeve. Um, but it has enough, like, like a little bit of, um, sort of a dressiness to it that you could dress it up and go out at night in it. Or you could totally like throw on flip-flops with it and wear sneakers and wear it like totally casual. And so that's the concept I'm trying to like, like less is more like you have this closet that's actually, um, you know, another sort of piece to this too is like, there's spent so many times in my life, for example, and I love clothes. So I've always been a big fashion person and, you know, bought things over the years. And there was a time in my life where I would go to my closet and I would literally just stare at it because I didn't know what to wear. And what I have now is this very like easy seamless capsule wardrobe is what I like to call it so you go to your closet and you're like okay today it's going to be this temperature I'm going to you know throw this layer this little jacket of mine over top of this little you know dress or I'm going to wear the pants with you know and then I'm going to have the one top underneath and then I'm going to throw the the button down top over top because it's a little cold this morning but it's supposed to warm up you know there's this real like mix and match and this is also of course colorado thing because our weather you know changes very drastically sometimes from day to night um but i rarely go to my closet and i'm like staring at it and don't know what to wear because i don't have a lot but what i do have is really smart and works together and and it's it's this timeless sort of design so it's I get to embellish it with like earrings and jewelry and accessories instead of feeling like I have to, I mean, it's not going to, you know, maybe be like the, the go to the office attire, but so many of us are kind of, that's kind of changing right in the world too. Um, and getting more casual. So, I mean, but it's, you can embellish it is what I'm saying even, and it's comfortable. So I want to wear it. Um, So I don't know how that works going back to the teenagers, but right now I'm just servicing the moms and the women and, you know, probably would love to add men at some point because I do get that a lot, you know, men's clothes. But yeah, women are just... Do

SPEAKER_02: 24:16

you feel as though they find you, these women, because of the environmental reasons or the health reasons? Maybe it's a multitude of things. They have kids or they've had the kids and then they start paying attention to food labels. For me, it was a journey.

SPEAKER_00: 24:38

Yeah, I think it's a journey for most of us. You know, like I shared with my little story, you know, in the beginning of I've always been a kind of a little, you know, an environmentalist at a young age, even when it wasn't like cool to be, you know, or whatever. And but I came to I continue to sort of explore that, like, oh, wait, what's in my clothes? So to answer your question, I think a lot of women are. come to me either as moms, so they're buying the kids' clothes, or they're buying the women's clothes because they're attracted to the comfort and the style piece. I would say that's sort of the number one first step in the door. But what happens is that they see the value because that is upfront as well. When you come to a show, I have a little board that's like a cheat sheet of the sustainable pieces and elements to the clothing brand. And I also will share that as well. So I think they come in, they like the style, but then they learn about this bigger sort of value piece. And they're like, oh, wow, okay, we should be doing more of this. And they start to see why it means so much and why it makes a difference. Yeah, so I would say it's probably more... the visual piece first, and then you get the value of the sustainability piece as you get to know us. But I also have been more marketing to that style piece, and now I'm starting to market more to sustainable professionals or people who are aligned and in that field. And asking them the question, like, what's stopping you from changing your own closet? Or what's preventing you from changing your clothes that you wear every day? And so that might change. That might change. As I'm, you know, talking to those, more of those types of people who are, like me, have always been interested in environmental issues.

SPEAKER_02: 27:10

When you ask them what, what, what, do they say? Um, what is stopping them?

SPEAKER_00: 27:19

I haven't actually, this is actually a little campaign that I'm just, or not little, but a campaign that I'm just starting to do now, uh, to reach out to people in my community that are in sustainability, sustainability, um, or sustainability aligned professions is what I like to call them. And I've I will be curious to

SPEAKER_02: 27:43

hear. Yeah, me too. I mean, to me, a lot of it for me personally is cost. You are spending more

SPEAKER_01: 27:53

money.

SPEAKER_02: 27:56

You know, so hence, you know, the goodwill. And, you know, I have a lot of, like I said, you know, to look and read labels, first of all. it's very rare that you find 100% cotton. And I want to go back to when you mentioned cotton. It has to say polyester on there. If I'm reading a label that says 100% cotton, is it 100% cotton or can they sneak in polyester? I

SPEAKER_00: 28:25

mean, okay, let me answer that in two parts. So I'm not 100% clear about this, but... As far as them, I'm not 100% clear on whether it gets like something, some other content gets stuck in there. But so, for example, as a clothing company, we are required to share that information. Like we cannot legally sell an item of clothing that does not have a proper label on it. And the proper label must include the origin of where it's made, the content of fabrics that are in that. Now, I mean, there are some exclusions. Like if something has, I think it's like 10% or less, you don't necessarily have to say that there's 10% of this thing. It's sort of like, You know, it has to be like 20% or more. And then the other thing I'll say about the labeling, and I've seen this happen. So for example, when things are made, you know, in China, for example, because they have different labor laws, they have different, yeah, I mean, just laws in general on these things, we don't know. We don't know, right? We have less control. We don't work side by side. I work side by side with my seamstresses. I work directly with them. I mean, I don't side by side sew with them, and I don't mean that, but I mean, I'm there every step of the way from start to finish of that production of that garment. So it's hard for things to slip through the cracks. We don't have as much control if something's being made in another country. And, you know, in China, for example, where they don't have the same laws as we do around these things. So it could, you could be getting that. And the other piece I was going to share that I've experienced myself. So little side stories to perform with a dance group. And we would often order the costumes from Amazon because it was just an easy place to get a lot of, you know, a lot of, Availability and sizes and quick, right? And versatility or whatever of options. And I would say at least two or three times I've gotten things that don't have any label at all. And nobody's, you know, regulating that. I mean, most people maybe don't even know that that's required, but I do. Um, so, you know, there's just more things that can, that we don't know in that production line, uh, where it's made overseas in the fast fashion model. Um, the other thing, uh, just to answer the second part of your question, which I, um, remind me, you were asking me about cotton. If something says 100% cotton or 100%. So are you asking, were you curious if the cotton, 100% cotton was the best thing to look for? Well,

SPEAKER_02: 31:54

I mean, you can answer, you can share that too. I just, I know that if I'm, if, you know, like I'll go shopping and I'm looking for natural fibers. And they're hard to find and how look at some, I'm like, Oh, this is great. And then I read out. Oh, this is no, I'm not buying it. Yeah. Like it's an instant. I read the label. I'm not getting it. It doesn't matter. I don't care how cute it is. I'm not buying it. It makes me hot. It makes me itchy. I just, the thought of putting it on my body, um, There's just something about it. And I don't know if, you know, like if we were talking about, you know, because I've watched some different just this in the last couple of years, like that fabrics carry frequencies. And so I'm going to look at linen and things that vibrate on a higher frequency level, too, because I think. Just overall, in order to really awaken the collective consciousness, we all need to be working on living our best lives in all aspects, in all areas of our life. And this is just another piece to that puzzle. So if I'm putting on, and I don't know how they determine that. Supposedly, they've figured it out by... I guess, whatever frequency device they're measuring it with, uh, with linen supposedly being like having like a 5,000 Hertz. Like it's the highest frequent frequency fabric out there. And so I got my linen sheets. They're the best sheets I've ever slept in. I don't ever want to sleep in a house, but it's really hard to find linen. So, and you know, in the summer and I Like I said, I still got my athletic wear pants. I've eliminated the bras. I wear a camisole that's a tank top that's 100% cotton from Pact. And it's got the little built-in bra. This is so important. And I think it really did stem from... When my kids were going to the Waldorf school, like I just didn't think anything of it. I mean, those kids were, you know, they were using beeswax crayons. We weren't, it was like a no plastic toy zone. It was wooden toys. And the family thought I was losing my mind. Went 23 years ago. No, you cannot buy him that. I don't want any plastic in the house. We had stainless steel sippy cups for the, like, you know, really 23 years ago, almost 22 years ago. And so. Again, it's so much when you think about, it's like, you're going to change your drinking water. You're going to do this. You're going to do that. You're going to eat organic. You're going to raise chickens in the backyard. You're going to mill your own flour. Like there were so many things I was trying to do to be super crunchy, hippie granola mom.

SPEAKER_00: 34:43

Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 34:44

And, but, you know, I was thinking like to, so yeah. So yes, when, when let's say looking, cotton may be one of the easier things to find if you're thrifting.

SPEAKER_00: 34:55

I would say that the first thing, Step one to me is let's try to start taking the polyester out. So, and I get that that's probably hard for, you know, um, you know, athletic clothes. It's just not, we're just not there yet. Um, but as consumers, we can change this pattern. reality by pushing you know uh pushing where we put our money right um so people like you know brands like pac um you know i they're from boulder so i i know i'm very familiar with them and and have have actually collaborated a little bit with them on some kids t-shirts from for when i first started i did a line of printed kids t-shirts um And they've come a long way. They used to just really be like T-shirts and little sweatpants and, you know, things like that. And now they're doing sort of more similar, you know, designs to what I'm the style that I'm doing, where it's like comfortable and stylish. Right. So keep pushing brands like that to do more, to do more, you know, in the athletic area, if that's what we're needing. Yeah. So I would sort of step one, try and just say no to polyester. And it's hard. I get it. Especially in the workout. I have things that are polyester. And I hate it. Right? Like, I really hate it. But, you know, slowly. The other, you know, brand I would bring up is Patagonia. Now, obviously, you know, the interesting thing about polyester is that it's soft. I mean, think about it like polyester. I mean, not, you know, taking out like maybe the 70s, you know, itchy sort of shirts of the 70s, right? Like that were just full of kind of like a Not so soft plastic, but when you think about like fleece, for example, or materials like that, like that's... And then there's a functionality, right? To like an outdoor brand like Patagonia, where they're using plastic to provide... protection, right, in the outdoors. But they're trying to more and more work with recycled plastic. Now, that's not going to necessarily remove the microplastic problem, but it's not going to put more plastics into the environment. So, you know, I think companies like that, we keep pushing them. We keep going to them. We keep supporting them to keep, you know, developing new ways to make clothing. And then as far as everything else, so I would say the next sort of tier after polyester and your, you know, label checking is cotton. Conventional cotton is not great. It uses a lot of water. You know, it's not renewable. It takes, you know, it, I don't have all the stats in front of me, but there's a bigger environmental impact with conventional cotton. Now, one thing that's changing, and I'm starting to see more and more of it just from my fabric sources, is what's called sustainable cotton. So, you know, as consumers, we can keep just saying no. And we don't have to be, you know... I mean, it's, you know, we don't, we don't have to be, you know, jerks about it or something like that. We just like, you know, with the brands that are willing to listen, you know, call them up and say, Hey, can you guys like make some more, you know, like, can you start looking into like making more, if they're willing to listen there, this is the way we start to change because they're not going to keep producing it if we're not buying it. Right. That's where we have the power. Yeah. You know, I just read, this is a little bit off topic, but it's just kind of an interesting way of saying no to things. I just learned about this economic blackout day that's happening tomorrow. And it's really more focused on what's happening with like companies like Target that have just removed all this DEI hiring stuff. And so it's people saying no, No, then we're not going to, you know, buy from you guys if you're going to do that stuff. So, you know, putting your power or your activism or your, you know, money where, you know, towards your values, right? So, and then I would say the third tier here is really just trying to buy more money. Linen, hemp, bamboo, just keep looking for the brands. There's definitely brands out there that are doing this work. They're just not big, right? They're not the bigger brands, but they could become the bigger brands. I mean, I definitely see

SPEAKER_02: 42:33

that as a possibility in the future.

SPEAKER_00: 42:35

Yeah, yeah. I mean, I was sort of thinking like in terms of, you know, what's going to happen for me, like with tariffs, for example, and not to get political or anything, but, you know, just was like, how is that really going to affect me? Well, I don't make clothes overseas. So it's not going to change that picture in the big way that's going to affect other brands that have that. do make their clothes overseas, right? Their cost of goods sold is going to be much, much higher, right? And it's going to change their bottom line in a way that, you know, may not be sustainable, right, in the long term. So, you know, maybe there's a silver lining. Yeah,

SPEAKER_02: 43:28

but there might be a silver lining to that, right? Also bringing the work back home over here. Yes,

SPEAKER_00: 43:34

right, yeah. A hundred percent. And then the silver lining of making it here and not having this enormous carbon footprint. I mean, look, you know, we can't change the carbon picture overnight. We may not even see the change in our lifetime because that's a difficult greenhouse gas to get out of the atmosphere. But we can reduce it, right? We could help reduce it. And this is one way, maybe if it's a small way, it's still a way. It's still a way to reduce it. So, yeah. So I'm, I mean, I'm all for it. And then, you know, we didn't talk a lot about the health. I'm not, you know, when it comes to our health, like I don't, I'm not a, you know, I'm not an expert on any of this, but I know how I feel about I know how I feel when I wear something, and this particularly happens when I wear exercise clothing, right? You know, I'll just get like these rashes sometimes. And so I go, huh, that's interesting. I don't get that when I wear my clothes. So, you know, there's obviously a connection. And we don't know a whole lot about microplastics. But what we do know is that they are affecting our health. And they are. I believe considered forever chemicals. So like the environment, you know, or the landfill, plastics that are in our landfills don't break down. The same thing is true with our bodies. I mean, that's just common sense, right? Like it's not going to break down in your body if it can't break down in, you know, the environment, right? We are of the environment, right? And so don't we want to, change that. But don't we want to get that out of our kids' clothes? Don't we want to get, I mean, like there's something about, you know, like my parents' generation, for example, growing up in probably a better food system than I did. Because when I was growing up, we were starting to put a lot of things in our food. Our food wasn't coming from the best soil anymore. And I have, you know, all these like health challenges as a result of that. And so I can't imagine that that's not happening with these same things that are in our clothing on some level.

SPEAKER_02: 46:13

Yeah, I was speaking to Dr. Bradley Campbell back, I think it was last June. And we were talking about, well, what I titled the show, Fertility Infertility Crisis. Mm-hmm. Because the microplastics are being found in, you know, levels of microplastics in sperm, in the sperm count of men. And so you look at all the underwear, the under armor, you know, compression shorts, and the athletic where these kids are, are, you know, and it's tight. Nuts are hugged up to their bodies. And you know, what I remember is, cotton boxers where everything was hanging free. You know, that's what I, that's what my dad wore. And you see a whole lot less of that. And a lot of this, and we, and I think it's a real problem. And, and, you know, my, our, my son's 22 or he'll be 23. And it's not just my son, right. It's the same stuff in the, in the, in the girls underwear.

SPEAKER_00: 50:20

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's the one area that I, I, was pretty adamant about for my son that he had organic cotton underwear. But yeah, it is hard. I am competing against this mass market of overproduction, cheap clothing. you know, and, and accessible. I mean, it's so, you know, it's, it's hard to compete with your Amazons and your targets and your, you know, like they're so accessible and cheap. You know, I don't, I, I don't, I, I think some of them are better than others, but, and I don't know, I haven't actually researched this, but, you know, I, I, I think I have no idea if like Amazon even offers any brands that are, that are sustainable, but they offer so many other things that are not, you know? So if you're just looking at price price comparison, you're going to, people are going to more often go with the cheaper, especially with kids. I mean, this is, this is another thing that I, you know, I, I actually started out as just kids clothing and realized that there was just this much larger market for women and moms. You know, we need comfort. I like to say, like, mama needs comfort too. So I started to build in the women's clothes. And now, you know, the women's clothes have really sort of become more central to this clothing brand. But I keep the kids clothes because it feels... it still feels really important to provide something for them. Now, I don't have underwear yet. Maybe that's coming. But there are places like Pack Organics that does. So I sometimes have to catch myself because I want to do it all. And I'm like, no, no, no. Okay, just stay in your lane. And you push people to the brands that are doing the right things. And you collaborate with them. You know, we all work together. So. Well,

SPEAKER_02: 52:52

you mentioned, you know, I know when you think of kids, sometimes you're buying those clothes every three months because just of a growth spurt. And so it does seem, you know, so I can understand. I also if you I don't know about you, but I was thinking about. And wonder, like, when was this transition to fast fashion? I mean, it's happened gradually, I think. My mom was making our clothes. She made a lot of our clothes. She made our bedspread. She made our curtains. She made our dust ruffles. Anything that she was making, she was smocking. Actually, there was a little shop up the street where she would do... you know, I guess commissioned to do smock work for different families, you know, then monograms and what have you. And so, you know, there was a, and we kept those clothes, right? And then when I grew out, outgrew them, guess what? They were going to my sister and then going to my other sister, right? And so when you buy a classic piece like this, especially for children, there is that possibility of passing it down and, As though like hand-me-downs are an issue, right? I mean, I don't know. Maybe some people say, oh, I've got my sister's hand-me-downs. Okay, but in the scheme of things, like that's keeping. And a lot of times those clothes are kept because they've been handmade.

SPEAKER_00: 54:16

Yeah. Well, there's, so one approach that's been central from the beginning, and like I said, it started out as kids' clothing. And the styles that I designed for the kids are, Um, we're meant to grow with them. So my best example is I make these little tunic dresses and the beauty of them is that they turn into a shirt as they get older and they're designed to grow with them. Or I have pants that like look cute when you roll them up or I have overalls for the kids that, that have in my women's clothes, have this too, um, adjustable straps. Um, you know, because our women's bodies are changing a lot too. Like if we're going through pregnancy or the other side going through menopause, we're changing, right? And we want clothes that feel good for, you know, a long time. So yeah, so that's a concept that is central to the design of these clothes. They're meant to not only just last for the durability, you know, with through durability, but they're meant to last seasons, years, right? So even for the kids, and that could look like, right, that the kids grow with them and then, you know, next stage is they pass them down. Another sort of piece to this that I don't do, you know, in my business yet, maybe this will be some sort of other thing that I'll collaborate and push people to, but... Clothes, you know, they do get holes, even good high quality clothes. If you wear them a lot, right, they're going to get, you know, little holes in the elbows. And there are some really cool things going on right now where you can do this like Japanese embroidery to patch that hole. And you get this like cool new jacket out of it. So trying to get people to think about that. holding onto those clothes, but you have to do it. You have to design something that's timeless, right? Because it's not going to, if you design something trendy, it's going to, you know, go out at some point. Um, the most trendy thing that I do is overalls, honestly. Yeah. I don't feel like they're going anywhere.

SPEAKER_02: 56:44

Yeah, no, and I think your clothes are really cute. I know you meant, so we were skiing a few weeks ago, and this was a Patagonia jacket, some sort of mountaineering jacket that my boyfriend was wearing. And we saw one more like it on the slopes in Snowshoe, West Virginia. And the guy, I mean, the jacket was 25 years old. It's 25 years old, a mountaineering jacket, like from 25 years ago, it was Patagonia or is Patagonia and you know, it's lasted. And at that time it was like a$600 jacket. He said, and it was just funny. He's like, oh, you got that. You know, this guy was hollering across the slopes. And you, you know, it was just like the only one you saw, but this, this, I think part of it is this like endless pit that we think we can fill with buying the next best thing or the new model. And when there are things from 25 years ago that work just great.

SPEAKER_00: 59:01

Yeah, yeah. And so when it's quality, it will. Right. It's really twofold, right? It's quality and durability, right? Combined with this timeless sort of comfort, right. And style. So that, you know, it, it, it lasts many seasons, both stylistically and. Quality wise. Right. And it's, it's funny. You bring up like the ski jacket thing. Cause I was just actually skiing last weekend and, and. So all these teenager, you know, or young, you know, young adults like skiing or whatever and they were wearing like these 80s style jackets which was like that's becoming a thing right now in Colorado it's like to ski in 80s gear and you know it's it's funny um how those things come back around yeah we're like how fun is it just to you know wear something from a different era and And just be like, whatever. I'm going to make this cool again. Yeah. And, you know, you bring up Patagonia. So, for example, one thing that I, you know, I mean, I love that they do a guarantee. I have this one fleece that I got in my 20s. And I'm, you know, I just turned 50. And, like, I still have that fleece. And I just had it on this morning. I mean, and it's gotten a new zipper, I think, twice.

UNKNOWN: 1:00:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 1:00:37

it's gotten, um, I mean, I think it just got its first really significant hole. And so I'm going to take it to them and see what can you guys do, you know? Yeah. Um, but yeah, it's, uh, I mean, that's amazing. Yeah. Yeah. You still have, you can still have things that, and you're right about like the kids clothes. Like that's a lovely thing when you can pass something down from your family, especially when it was like made, um, you know, made by, you know, your mom or whatever. There's something, there's a story there. And I think we've, we've kind of lost, we've kind of lost that in this fast fashion world. And I don't think it fulfills people. And, you know, I talked a little bit about my, my own story and experience with clothing, there was this period, like I said, in my life where I was, I was really, I found it like almost stressful to get dressed because I had too much. And so I couldn't really weed through what did I need for that day? And, you know, and some of it was stuff and I'll be honest that I bought because it was cheap, but I didn't necessarily love it. So that, you know, This happens quite often when I will sell to people who don't really have a lot of money and they come in and they're like, oh, I just love this dress, but it's a little bit out of my price range. And then maybe they go away and they think about it and they come back and they say, you know what? I'm just going to get it. I'm going to get it. It's going to be my splurge of the year. And then I hear from them, you know, months later, or maybe they come back to another show or they come back a year later and and they buy something else and they always will say, oh my gosh, that was like the best purchase. I wear it all the time. That is just like magic to me. You know, it's like, this is what I want. Like, I want you guys to feel good in your clothes, feel good in your bodies with these clothes, right? And feel like, not only have you bought something of value for yourself, but you've bought something of value to the community at large, right? You've put your money towards something really valuable, something that could change the world, even if it's in this small little way. And that's

SPEAKER_02: 1:03:16

huge, you know? Yeah, and have you seen the Netflix documentary?

SPEAKER_00: 1:03:25

No, but I wrote it. Tell me again the name because I wanted to write it down. It's called Buy Now.

SPEAKER_02: 1:03:30

Because, right, you've got this, right? When you get in this car, it's easy to do, even when you don't want it or don't need it. But I do think, and that's, you know, they talk about a lot of that. And it's not just about the clothing, but they do talk about the clothing and they show you how this clothing is designed. you know, being disposed of and collected and just piles and I can't remember where they were, where they showed all of this. And it's like, wow. But they talk about, you know, the cell phones, just this like disposable. And but they also talk about how little is actually recycled. And so if we can just like quit buying things that need to be recycled and In a way, because it's not getting recycled. So we can- Do you mean in clothing or in general? Yeah. And they talk about the statistics are pretty low of what goes in your recycling bin. Yeah. It's pretty low. 6% of plastic waste was recycled in 2021.

SPEAKER_00: 1:04:35

That's it. Yeah. Yeah. This is another little passion project of mine is educating people on just how to think about recycling. So I don't-

SPEAKER_02: 1:04:47

bother always anymore. Yeah. Because I know it's not going to go where it says it's going to go. And I can avoid buying it in the first place.

SPEAKER_00: 1:04:59

My rule of thumb with plastic, for example, glasses, recycle metal, you know, cans, whatever, those are recyclable. But for example, glass, it needs to be cleaned. You got to take the top off. The top can't go with the, you know, you have to separate, right? Yeah.

UNKNOWN: 1:05:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 1:05:17

But I think the cleaning thing is an interesting one that people probably don't pay attention to at all. And then using water. Right, right. And recycling is not a solution to the problem. Really, the problem is that we're consuming too much, right? And I would say where manufacturers have it, and this isn't in clothing necessarily, right? But, you know, for example, those little numbers on the bottom of plastic, right, with the little triangle. Ones and twos are about the extent of what most states can handle. It's rare. It's rare that, you know, states have the functionality to break down anything that's not a one or two. But yet all these manufacturers are putting that little symbol on the bottom. People don't know. They see it. They're like, oh, it's recyclable. And so it's a real that's a that's a whole other. But like, I'm just trying to tell people just that, like ones and twos wash things out. If you've got a top that's a different material, think about that. Separate it. If it's more work for them, they're not going to do it because it's a lot. It's a real problem. I was saying step one is let's just try to get my husband to switch to from 2% milk to whole milk because there are glass options for whole milk versus the cartons, which are covered with plastic and you can't recycle that. You can't recycle anything that's got a coating on it. So, you know, it does, again, it brings back this idea of like consumer choices matter, right? And when you get enough people saying, I'm not going to buy the plastic version anymore, it will change what the companies are doing. But yeah, the recycling is an unfortunate one. I feel like at the manufacturing level, their labeling is confusing. They shouldn't be allowed to put that symbol on there. If it's not a one or a two, they're just misleading the public.

UNKNOWN: 1:07:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 1:07:53

But, you know, hey, that's marketing for you. Yeah,

SPEAKER_01: 1:07:57

yeah, right.

SPEAKER_00: 1:07:58

Like, natural versus, you know, organic that's certified.

SPEAKER_02: 1:08:04

Yeah,

SPEAKER_00: 1:08:05

I know. So, yeah, it's hard. It's a lot. It is a lot for consumers. And, you know, this is where I sort of bring it back, too, to this, like, I want to take the guesswork out for people. Like, if you come to me, you can guarantee– because I'm neurotic enough– to make sure it doesn't, I mean, erotic enough on the environmental front, right? Yeah. That I would literally carry my, you know, sample a glass bottle home with me from the mall because there was nowhere to recycle it.

SPEAKER_02: 1:08:34

Yeah. You know, I remember, I just, golly, how did we get, I don't know how we got into this predicament. I remember I was just telling someone yesterday when we were kids, we drank Coca-Cola and, you know, they were the bottles, they were the glass bottles and, I don't know if they had high fructose corn syrup yet in them or not. And they came in an eight pack with a handle, this cardboard box. You put them back in there and we would walk them. And I remember enjoying taking them to the back of our Kroger, our grocery store. And on a, you know, the metal rolls, rolling conveyor belt. Remember those? They were like metal rollers stacked right next to each other before they had electric conveyor belts. Thinking of Laverne and Shirley here. Okay. Well, maybe. You place them, you set them there and they rolled away and, you know, they dealt with your bottles at the Kroger. And, and, and just to think about like, when was the transition? It just kind of happened. Like. I think it went. We're doing all these other things like growing up and being teenagers. We weren't. aware enough to know that this fast fashion was like slowly like creeping in and, and the plastic, which were so convenient because they had a lid and we could screw them back on and we could, they were convenient and all this. Yeah. Has just happened, you know, over the last, I don't know, probably seems like even since, since we did

SPEAKER_00: 1:10:07

20 to 30 years. Yeah. Yeah. I would say, I mean, it started in the nineties. I mean, I think it started if you want to really kind of trace back, just manufacturing, um, um pivoting to asia you know that happened when we we we open trade with with with china for example um which you know yeah i don't want to say it's all that because i think we're exploiting we're exploiting people every day right now in terms of um just how much we are hitting people in the face with every little, everything really, like, you know, we've got to have more of this, more of this, more of this, more of this, whether it's information, whether it's clothes, whether it's, we, we think we need more and more and more, more, you know, bigger house, bigger, you know, more cars, whatever it is, you know, more clothes, more shoes.

UNKNOWN: 1:11:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 1:11:10

it's really about like giving, it's sort of pushing this sort of false sense of security that that's what brings us happiness, right? And it doesn't, it doesn't bring us happiness. You know, I have a good friend who lives in Germany and she used to live here in the States and we used to work together. And she was saying to me recently how, You know, Americans are so funny. They always like, they want, they think they want their house and they want their car with the garage or whatever. And like, we can't afford a house in, you know, Munich. We live in an apartment that we rent and we're perfectly fine. And I was like, yeah, that's true. Like you guys walk more, you like, you know, you're in your community more because you have to be. And we were actually, you know, visiting them last summer and we were all just the, my, you know, little family of three, we were all saying how fun it was that we could eat whatever we want because we walked everywhere. Literally, like you walk to the train, you take the train, you're like, you're hardly ever in the car. And so, you know, I've just been thinking about how do I bring that into the, my life here and not to get off, off topic, but I just think it's really part of this, this, this idea of needing more and more and more and more. It's really like this coming back to this like idea of a false sense of security that we need more to be happy. And, you know, when I think about that example of myself and my own experience of like, when I had all, when I had all this, this, stuff clothing in my closet i wasn't happy i was actually stressed and didn't know what to wear and sometimes you know would put on multiple things and then okay i guess this will do right and it just makes me think like that's just not that's not the ticket to happiness at the end of the day uh i would guess that it's it's like that customer that uh you know, type of customer that I described, the person that's like, oh, I can't, you know, I don't, I can't, I don't usually spend this much, but I'm going to do it because I think this is going to be great. And then they come back and they, they want more and they make it work. And how does that, you know, how lovely does that feel to, to, to wear that value and that happiness, you know, on your body every day?

SPEAKER_02: 1:13:59

Yeah, no, yeah, I can resonate with having too many clothing items and watch two young women in my life who, you know, what seems like almost stressful to them. They've tried on nine things. And I have really, my boyfriend jokes, I mean, I live in 937 square feet. And it's not a lot of space. And that's not the real, like I slowly wanted to, you know, minimize and, and I have, so I don't have, I don't have a ton of clothes myself, but I have like two going out outfits. When I say going out, just out to dinner and, and everybody knows what they are. And if you see me out, which is so, which is not that frequent anyway, out to eat, I'm going to be in one of those two outfits. That's it. And I don't have any, you know, and maybe I'll put on earrings, but likely not because they make my ears itch. And You know, I just, I don't know. It's changed so much. And I think part of it's just a life experience, realizing what's important and what I find valuable. But yeah, knowing that you've got just a few classic items. I remember my mom used to, the kids had more clothes when they were little because they were gifted so many things. And I would get hand-me-downs from all kinds of people when my kids were small. Like I've got some good homeschooling friends that had like a son and daughter almost similar in age, like a little bit older. So it was like a perfect balance. And my mom's like, just get rid of this stuff, Elizabeth, make it easy for yourself, you know, just have five shirts and five pairs of shorts and then you're not doing laundry all the time. Like there's something freeing about it. And when, I mean, you know, it's, it's, it's less work for you at home. It's less, you know, it's like less thinking about what am I going to wear? And if I, when you can just sort of take a step back and simplify and, and this is just one more piece to that puzzle. And I do think for women, when you see all these things on the internet and maybe what you think you should be looking like or dressing like in order to, I think that's hard. And so I think too, if women could feel more comfortable and empowered in their clothing, regardless, right? That's an energy. It's not what you're wearing. Right, right. Ultimately in the end, it's what's... That's just my thought, right? You know, how you wear it, it's going to be your energy and what you bring. It's not what

SPEAKER_01: 1:16:39

you're wearing.

SPEAKER_02: 1:16:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 1:16:41

Yeah. I remember this, uh, years ago when my husband and I first were together and, and, uh, I have a little bit of a shoe habit. I mean, but Also something stuff I invest in good high quality shoes. I spend money on my shoes, but I wear, excuse my French, the shit out of them. And I still have shoes that I bought, you know, probably eight years ago now. And so my, my, what I was just thinking about was this friend who, you know, was trying to describe to my husband that like your clothing and the way you express yourself if it's your clothing or your shoes or your shoes and your clothing in my case it's like a form of art expression right it's it's it's me expressing my artistic style right um Or the other thing that I like to always tell my husband about the shoes is like, he's like, oh my gosh, those are, you know, 200 bucks or whatever. I was like, yeah, but if I wear them every day, eventually there'll be a dollar a day.

UNKNOWN: 1:18:03

Right. It's true.

SPEAKER_02: 1:18:04

I

SPEAKER_00: 1:18:04

mean, I can

SPEAKER_02: 1:18:06

justify things like

SPEAKER_00: 1:18:06

that. I'm pretty sure. Yeah. Those eight-year-old shoes are probably like two cents now. Yeah. A day. So if you're thinking of it that way, yeah. it's, it's value. And these both, both from this like value and having it last and value and having it be this beautiful expression of yourself. So.

SPEAKER_02: 1:18:31

Yeah. Well, to honor your time, I would love for you to share, you know, where people can find you if you have shows coming up or events, or if I know that you have a website and you're also on Instagram, have an Instagram presence, but where, where, Fill me in there. Fill us in.

SPEAKER_00: 1:18:48

Yeah. So you can find me online at Fox Lily. The way I spell it is Fox and Lily together. One word, but instead of a Y it's an L I E. So F O X L I L I E dot studio. It's really quite simple. Yeah. Just Fox Lily dot studio. And we have, you know, most of the collection online and, But I also do events and I've got one coming up in Denver. Um, so it's a, it's actually a maker's market, um, to honor, um, international women's day. So it's, uh, the 8th of March, I believe, um, from 10 to four and it's in, uh, the community called, um, high, the Highlands, uh, or Highlands, um, It's right downtown. And it's actually this old Masonic temple, the Highlands Masonic Temple. It's a really neat space. Horseshoe Market is what it's called. So I'll be there. And then I have a couple of shows coming up in May as well for springtime. And they're through another group called Firefly Handmade. There will be one in Denver on Old South Gaylord Street shops. It's the... The weekend of, I think it's the 4th. Let me just confirm. Yeah, so the 3rd and the 4th, I'll be at Firefly Handmade in Denver. And then on May 17th and 18th, I'll be downtown Boulder on Pearl Street.

SPEAKER_02: 1:20:35

Okay, so those are all coming up here in the next few months.

SPEAKER_00: 1:20:39

Yeah. Yeah. So if you're in the Colorado, Denver, Boulder area, be sure.

SPEAKER_01: 1:20:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 1:20:46

Yeah. Come check us out. It's, it's, um, one of my favorite things is to work with customers and find the right style for them. There's a place to try on. We've got mirrors, you know, we'll get you

SPEAKER_02: 1:21:00

set up. Yeah. And maybe, maybe you'll make it out here. Um, in, in, uh, October, uh, The first weekend in October, we have a big art festival, the St. James Art Festival.

SPEAKER_00: 1:21:17

Oh, really? Where? Remind me. What

SPEAKER_02: 1:21:23

are you? I'm in Louisville, Kentucky. Oh, right. OK. But there is a gal who I don't know about her, her, her fabric, but it's all handmade. Her name is Autumn Tennille, I think. I don't know how you pronounce her name, but she's in Breckenridge. Oh, in Breckenridge. He comes to that art show every year. Oh, wow. And I found that really cool dress. I loved it. And that was one of those like, oh, handmade. I spent a little bit more than I would. And it was, but I've loved that dress. So anyway, maybe you'll make it out here sometime to Kentucky. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 1:22:03

Well, I do work with a couple of artists. my sources in the, you know, production chain are, um, in North Carolina, but, um, yeah, labels, my labels all come from a factory in North Carolina and I'm talking to some of the manufacturers in that area. Um, as I, you know, keep, I mean, I work directly with a small group of sewers seamstresses that are here. They're right down the street from me actually. Um, But yeah, there is some manufacturing happening in North Carolina as well as LA. And so, you know, we'll see. Always, yeah, looking to

SPEAKER_02: 1:22:50

expand. Awesome. I love it. Thank you so much for your time today. Thank

SPEAKER_00: 1:22:55

you.

SPEAKER_02: 1:22:56

This was great. Yeah, it was. Yeah, you have a great day, okay? Thank you. Good to see you. Yeah, likewise.