The Circumcision Disaster, Scar Tissue and Somatic Sexology featuring Jenna McClelland

In this powerful podcast, I sit down with Jenna McClelland to explore the emotional, psychological, physical and spiritual effects of circumcision on men.  We discuss how this early trauma can impact a baby's nervous system, attachment patterns and sense of safety in the world.  Jenna brings compassionate insight into the lasting imprint such procedures can leave on the body and psyche, while also offering pathways for awareness, healing, and informed-decision making for parents and practitioners alike. 

Jenna McClelland is a holistic sex educator and founder of E'Leurre Natuals, a women's intimacy brand redefining sexuality as sacred and transformative. After healing chronic asthma and witnessing the dep shame women carry around their bodies, she devoted her life to dismantling cultural conditioning around sex, pleasure and power.  Her mission deepened in 2023 when she began advocating for awareness and healing around Male Genitalia Mutilation.  Through trauma-informed education, somatics, and spiritual practices, she guides others towards radical self-embodiment and sexual sovereignty. 

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Website:  www.jennamcclelland.co

Instagram: jenna_mcclelland_

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Transcript

SPEAKER_02: 1:18

Oh, fun. Welcome back to today's episode of Unapologetic Living. I am excited to have a prior guest and friend, Jenna McClellan, with me today.

SPEAKER_00: 1:35

Welcome, Jenna. Thank you so much for having me again, Elizabeth. I'm so happy to be here.

SPEAKER_02: 1:40

Yeah, I know it's been just about a year

SPEAKER_00: 1:42

since

SPEAKER_02: 1:44

we spoke.

SPEAKER_00: 1:45

Exactly.

SPEAKER_02: 1:46

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, like right around this time. And I'm super excited to have you back. I know you're doing, you know, I've seen a lot of things take place in your life over the last year. And you are, I think, maybe shifting a little bit of your focus a hair, not entirely, because I know we touched on some similar topics last year. But I'd love to see how your work is evolving. I know that you are a holistic and somatic sex educator and coach. And a circumcision researcher. And I know we definitely talked about the circumcision last year. So kind of fill me in because I've seen, you know, and followed your story and things have shifted and changed for you a bit in your life.

SPEAKER_00: 2:34

Yes. Yes, the common denominator since then is definitely having to do with sexuality and sacred alchemical practices that help you awaken to the power of your co-creative genitals. And I have and have put on pause currently my sexual, for women, like a sex brand called Elor that I was debuting and taking off and super excited about. And then all of a sudden from one day to the next, I was hit pretty hard with circumcision and felt pretty led by something greater than me to go ahead and embark on a new journey, a new path. It was funny because, you know, I thought I had this calling. It was help women and their sexuality and help with these alchemical practices. And you found it and that's it. Cause I healed so much using the practices whenever I was healing from chronic asthma. And I had noticed a lot of women suffering from how they feel about their bodies and how embarrassed they are about their sexuality and even talking about it. So that to me was, you know, you found it, Jenna, I was in yoga for about 11 years and I wanted to try something new and this was extremely empowering and inspiring. And then And then one day, the next, I don't remember if I even spoke about this last on our last call, but I ended up having a dream where I was witness to a newborn being circumcised in a medical setting. And it was pretty spot on to exactly what it is that they do. And it was earth shattering. And over about a week, it took me maybe a little bit longer to realize that this was way bigger than me. I needed to shift the trajectory of what I was doing. But prior to that, I needed to develop into the woman I needed to be to talk about something as taboo and controversial as circumcision. It's not something you're supposed to talk about. So as I've just been, you know, kind of dancing along this new plane, I started to realize there's nobody in this space whatsoever. And I took it upon myself to be a leader and a pioneer, especially from a perspective of a woman. There's really not many female voices out there advocating for or rather against circumcision, providing any support, because it's not just something that's happening to babies. What's happening to the babies after, well, when they grow up, what's happening to them in their teenage years, what's happening to them in adulthood, and how is that ultimately affecting our culture and humanity and our relationships? So it's just been this huge rabbit hole dive of exploring social conditioning and male conditioning and intimacy and relationships and how desperate women truly are for deep connectivity and intimacy. And it's very difficult for a circumcised man to offer that to women. So in hand in hands, like people are, have said, You know, Jenna, you must really love men. Like what have men done for you? Like, you know, how is it that you came to love men so much? I find that to be really beautiful. And I'll say, you know, I think I actually love women a little bit more because it's almost like I came from this one side of the spectrum over to the men's side and like, hey guys, let's heal. Let's get it together. Let's awaken. Let's get rid of the claws that circumcision has deep in our psyche so that we can show up for women and show up for one another. So that's kind of in a nutshell where I am and what I'm up to.

SPEAKER_02: 6:06

So I know that you did. I believe that in that conversation, we did talk a little bit about it because the dream that you described is very much one that I can remember as a mother myself with a circumcised son. Yeah. And this was 23 years ago, almost, in about a month that I made that decision. And I had a little bit of information because I had gone through a birthing class to prepare me for a natural childbirth. And so it was brought up. I don't know how often that is brought up in a traditional childbirth class. Yeah. And so I felt... lucky in that regard. But with that being said, I still made the decision to circumcise. And the image you described is exactly how I remember it. You know, I was not in the room, I was an observer just outside. And you know, they had my not even 36 hour old newborn. you know, and I went with what I thought was a more, um, which they told me was a more, uh, what would be the word that there were different procedures. And I went with the one that was supposed to be easier on the baby. So they said, so anyway, um,

SPEAKER_00: 7:41

So, yeah, there are different types. Like, you know, they'll be like, you know, we can just do a little snip or, you know, we can take the whole thing off. It depends. So essentially the parents, since it's an elective surgery, they can choose how much they want to remove and how much they don't. So it's just kind of like it will, you know, cosmetic. So what do you want? And usually it's the dad who has been circumcised who's gonna do the majority of the pushing because it's this deep level of trauma inside of him where it's like, things get passed down through our lineage and how else do you kind of start to break the cycle? And if he's not willing to see what this is ultimately creating and what is created in his life, there's no way he's gonna have any empathy for his child because he can't really connect to the parts of himself that are traumatized and that are not really feeling safe. And so from all of that deep repression, because it's much deeper than suppression, from all of the repression, you lose empathy because it's so buried deep, right? How can you connect to what's really happening to the infant? that valve has been completely shut off because it's hanging deep into your neurological system. And so thinking that they, the babies have feelings or that they, you know, they're not really going to be able to feel it. It looks better. Just, you know, it makes sense. And you have doctors and I think an average of eight times nurses and doctors will ask a woman while she's pregnant, whether or not she will circumcise and they're constantly pushing it on parents.

SPEAKER_02: 9:11

Now, were you working on a documentary or some sort of... I know you were working on an educational piece around this, I feel like, last time. And I guess I'm curious if you've talked to more adult men since we last spoke and how they feel and how they even connected to the fact that maybe this has influenced their life or their disconnection, even maybe from their own bodies. Yeah. And then how it may interfere with that emotional or deeper intimacy with their partner. Yeah,

SPEAKER_00: 9:48

I have the goosebumps all over my body right now. I'm so happy you asked that question because it is a very large grouping of men that are completely silent and don't have a voice because talking about. having any form of trauma through circumcision, it's trivialized. You're laughed at. A lot of parents have deep cognitive dissonance and they have to protect themselves. Therefore, they're unwilling to listen and hold space for a growing child or an adult man who recognizes the trauma and wants to talk about it and understand why did you choose to have this part of my body, the most sensitive part of my body and everything that has to do with my full capacity for pleasure removed without my consent I need to understand and I would really appreciate validation that I was robbed of this experience and that you took that decision away from me. And it's so drenched in... like just so much trauma. I mean, not trauma. Well, yes, trauma, but sorrow. Like the other day I was doing a somatic release with a girlfriend. And even then, like, I'm still like regurgitating a lot of the sadness because these men come to me by the dozens a day. I have a community call where I speak with them and offer healing advice. We have everything from botch circumcisions to erectile dysfunction. premature ejaculation, and some have deep trauma on the, what's the name of this? It's a superficial fascia layer that is removed. So they want to kill themselves. They are in deep rage. They are frustrated. They are mad at society. They're mad at women. They have a extreme mother wound, right? Because the baby will not be able to separate himself within his own identity until about six to nine months. I would even push it closer towards a year. And that abandonment and harm will always be connected to her, even if dad handed him off to a nurse or a doctor. It really doesn't matter. So this wound that is deep within his core, it's the biggest thorn that exists inside of his heart, his genitals, and his nervous system. So it influences our relationship. So a lot of them say... I'm responsible for the demise of my relationships. I can't get intimate. I'm scared. I am hypervigilant. And I'm angry. And I think the anger is unbelievable. Unbelievable. And there's really no justice to be had. And with men and their social conditioning, they're not told to connect to their emotions. They're not told or taught how to regulate and talk about something about how you feel, they would essentially get emasculated. So having that deeper connection stacking and congestion of layers makes it very difficult for them to even know how to cope. And there's nobody in this space. There is not a single person who is offering any form of healing. I was on a call yesterday with my group and I was telling them that this is a situation where things need to be dealt with. There's the front of the line. They'll think of like a restaurant, right? You have front of the house and then back of the house. Front of the house is more like like the public facing and then the back of the house is going to be a little bit more kitchen where all the magic is happening. the healing that needs to exist is going to be the back of the house. There needs to be a level of support and foundation and more voices speaking about circumcision and offering ways in which these men can release the trauma in their tissue and can feel at home in their body and can empower themselves to still lead a deeply sexual and truth life. driving life in in purpose because if you have that many soul pieces leaving the body in what way are you through circumcision and what way are you going to be able to connect to who you truly are so that's kind of like in a nutshell

SPEAKER_02: 14:03

yeah and i would imagine that cognitive dissonance even amongst men who yes yeah who don't or could not possibly fathom the fact that this procedure done so early in life could be impacting?

SPEAKER_00: 14:20

Yes.

SPEAKER_02: 14:23

Yeah. I could guess a lot of men, even men I know, you know, I don't remember that. There's no way.

SPEAKER_00: 14:32

You're crazy. I love the way it looks. It looks so much better. The foreskin is disgusting. This is ugly shmegma and just making funny fun and mocking the genitalia, which is one of the most shameful things that you can do to an individual, specifically a man, because all of his power exists in his genitals. It's his genital heart connection. And the resistance is very real. And I even get a lot of backlash that I'm a woman and what the hell do I think that I'm doing in this space? But I just know that's their mother womb coming forward, right? Like they're mad at me because they need to use something as well. I'm a mirror and they need to use something to attack at. And if it's a woman, that's perfect because they can let some of their rage out on somebody and try to belittle them because they were diminished sexually and holistically.

SPEAKER_01: 15:22

You

SPEAKER_02: 15:23

know, I was, do you think this plays a role in our men today? And they're, I don't want to say inability. That's a bad choice of words. This weekend, I drive Lyft and Uber sometimes. And so this weekend, I actually recorded this call. It was, it was an Uber live and I haven't done anything with it yet, but these two gals got in my car, 22, and they were going out to meet a girlfriend because this girl wanted to get their take on whether this guy that they were going to see there was into her or not. Like she didn't know. Recruit the girls. Yeah, so they recruited the girlfriends. This gal needs these two girls to decide whether or not he calls her, this, that, but she has no idea what's going on in this guy's mind.

SPEAKER_01: 16:27

Right.

SPEAKER_02: 16:30

And I said, well, why do you think that is? And the girls are like, well, I mean, I'll just have to send it to you and post it eventually. Well, he doesn't have any balls.

SPEAKER_00: 16:41

Right. Literally or figuratively?

SPEAKER_02: 16:43

Figuratively. Okay. Okay. Okay. And that he doesn't have the courage to speak up, to be assertive, to tell this gal how he feels. You get where I'm going with this. And, and, but they went on to say is that it's, there's this fear of, you know, being considered creepy or pervy, right? If he's too assertive, right? Stepping into that divine masculine presence where it's, They claim they're a woman. They let you know where you stand. They're not stringing you along. You know exactly what they want and where they're going to take you. Whereas women today, you know, they don't always know. They're just kind of along for the ride. I don't know what we are. And I mean, these girls even use, you know, I don't even know why there's a word called situationship. But when you think about how far back we go and how so many of these young men, right. Are lose this piece at so early on, right. Like a huge piece of their masculinity and how that shapes, you know, and then of course we have this message in society about toxic masculinity, everything masculine, uh, you know, assertiveness, directness, um, protectorship, right, provide, you know, has been also deemed. And so men are just afraid to be men almost. And I wonder if there's a connection. 100%.

SPEAKER_00: 18:16

It goes so deep into human behavior and that every time I hear something, I just, I'm just like scratching my head. I can't, I can't believe it. But at the same time I can, you know, there's a lot of avoidance and let me just start with saying just like women, uh, Kasha Urbaniak is one of my teachers and I absolutely love her. And she talks about the good girl conditioning and I've gone down the rabbit hole of dissecting conditioning and really how to awaken into your authentic self. And, you know, there's the same called there's this dichotomy between being in a smush like you know you can't be too hot or if you're too hot you're a slut but you can't you know be too covered up because then you're approved so like there's just this constant smushing of not unable to really know like where you stand and I would go as far as to say that men are experiencing that too right when you have this toxic masculinity and then hey you can't experience your emotions and then but I can't this way so they're kind of like squishing and not knowing how to behave and how to understand the energy within their body that really wants to express itself. And if sexuality isn't being expressed in a healthy way, it's distorted. So that energy will turn into perversion. That energy will turn into pedophilia. I mean, it will turn to becoming a rapist, whatever, because there's a higher percentage of circumcised men that are sexual violators than they are uncircumcised. So circumcision actually creates more perversions and more confusion, more frustration. And that again, like I said earlier, that inability to really ground into your center and the cock energy is the center for the masculine. So yeah, they're very confused and they're more in their feminine because a big part of their masculine identity was ripped away.

SPEAKER_02: 20:05

So then how do you work with, and saying that there aren't many people working with our men, how do you work? Is that one of the- um is that the inspiration for

SPEAKER_01: 20:18

like

SPEAKER_02: 20:20

this new holistic sex educator somatic work that you're doing is that you can help I mean obviously I'm sure right in helping men you help women so it's sort of a and maybe you're working with both but

SPEAKER_00: 20:35

yeah um I wanted to say it's it's so this um training to be a somatic sex educator is so driven by my desire to be of service to men. But when I go a little bit deeper, like, you know, this is a deep, uh, part of who I am, this is a deep calling and it's my journey. And it's also my evolution and who I'm I remember it was a November. I interviewed this man named Harry Gearmond, who is the spokesman for the Bloodstained Men. And the Bloodstained Men is a protest anti-circumcision group. They were all white, and they put a blood... representation on their genitals and they they go all over the country. They were just at the Capitol just a couple of weeks ago. And he's the spokesman. And I asked him, I said, Harry, so let's say, for example, you're out protesting. And, you know, what is how common is it that someone is going to like have a light bulb come off and be like, oh shit. Like I was essentially strapped down to a medical sexual torture device and had the most sensitive part of my body ripped off. And my parents are responsible for this. That's a huge pill to swallow as a man. And what happens? And he was like, yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, it can happen. It can happen. And I was like, okay. well, what do you do? Does this guy just go home? Who's going to support him? What healing modalities? What therapists? Who's out there? And he said, no, there really isn't anyone out there that, and from my own research, that even EMDR specialists and therapists and sex therapists and all types of people, even in the holistic realm, will not hold space and not validate. And so they have, I've even seen where this one guy said, I went to go for EMDR. And at the end of it, and it was specifically for circumcision at the end of it, the specialist said, you should be happy. You should be happy that you got circumcised. So because of this cognitive bias, these people aren't capable of really holding space and understanding the travesty behind their eyes and what they're going through. So I took it upon myself to say, fuck it. Let me do this because I don't have a problem speaking up. I really don't have a problem being authentic. And if I trigger people, I trigger people. And I think that I specifically was bred and my personality was chosen from my soul so effortlessly and perfectly and divinely to have all the characteristics that I need to be able to lead, to be a leader here. And The type of work that it will take and what I am currently working on is just the deep somatics of, you know, because there's severe disembodiment. So how do we get them to feel safe in their body? How do we get them to really understand some of the pain that they're experiencing in their penises, essentially, because a lot of them don't want to embody their body because it's painful to feel their genitals. And I'm learning specifically right now through this woman named in my program. The program is called, it is specific center of sexology. And Ellen Heade is one of the facilitators and she does scar tissue remediation. So essentially I'm learning all about scar tissue and the body and pelvic health and to offer specific type of body work to open and heal, not only from an emotional level, but a physical level, the adhesions and trauma that are still existing inside of the, of the core circumcision wound in the scar. And because those, those cells, all those nerves are dead, essentially. because it was ripped and they're traumatized and there's not much blood flow going to the area. And then the head of the penis, which should be protected, now is rubbing on things and genes and sheets and whatever, and it calluses. So the coronal ridge of the penis, think of the mushroom cap at the very bottom, that is called keratization. So it hardens and it creates numbness. And so they can't feel, hence impotence. erectile dysfunction.

SPEAKER_02: 27:49

So it makes me think of, you know, I know our work. Well, well, the couple's coming together with Kim Anami and lingam massage as being a healing tool for, you know, and yoni massage as well. Right. As, as to, to use these as healing modalities for, for sexuality and releasing stored trauma. And is that, kind of, I know you're saying a specific kind of body work.

SPEAKER_00: 28:25

Yes. Yeah. I mean, cause a lot of these men don't really even have partners that are validating their experience. Cause when you're deep in it, a lot of them are, they're obsessed and it's like, it's all everyone wants to talk about because they don't have, they've never had an outlet in which they could talk about it. So now that there is an outlet in the space that I've created, like, it's all like, they're just like, I have to talk about this. And I've never had a woman really honor and worship my cock in a way to So... experience and feel my pain from what has happened and they tell me that i need to get over it or that you know like stop talking about it and you know it must not be that big of a deal and so they end up walking away and leaving these relationships so even this energy because again they're working with the mother wound so when you can consider the not the element but the role that a partner can play and help them really deeply heal by honoring and worshiping their cock no matter what has been taken from it that it is perfect just the way that it is, having someone hold that type of space for you and having their hand on your body and looking you in the eyes and telling you that you are safe and you are incredible and you're magnificent and that I will let you lead and I want you to lead me in this beautiful union and I want you to show me your power because I can see it. And that within itself, I have I have the truth bumps because it's missing. And some of them are even too afraid to even get there in the first place because it is so embarrassing, but deep down it's what they deeply seek from women.

SPEAKER_02: 30:00

Yeah. On the flip side of that, I have to also be curious around, from living and being a woman, the cultural messages that we have also taken on or that have been embedded in our psyche around something like cock worship, right? Or- Oh, yeah. Right? I mean, so there's this fear, like, okay, I've attracted this person. She's also afraid, right? Because there's this really, right? This drawing together of two energies that both need healing, right? And, you know, is it, you know, you've got this, I don't know, I think of that book, The Flight from Intimacy, like he needs this, right? She

SPEAKER_01: 31:01

comes

SPEAKER_02: 31:02

in, she can't offer this because she's truly fearful of that intimacy. So while it's sort of this like weird, funky dance that two people, when they come together and they can't quite.

SPEAKER_00: 31:15

Make it work. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 31:17

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 31:17

Yeah. Yeah. You know, we bring all of our trauma forward in our relationships. I mean, it's a beautiful opportunity to heal a lot deeper than you would do by yourself. And those are going to be magnified in the bedroom. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Women equally are afraid to even admit, you know, any adornment towards the cock there, any towards their self, because if I can't love my pussy, how am I going to be able to love my husband's? you know, well, not that he has a pussy, but you know what I mean? Like how, how am I going to be able to love his cock? How am I going to be able to lift him up and lift us up and come from that sovereign space of sexuality and co-creation? It's just, it's unavailable. So ultimately, of course, like we have to do our own work first and then come forward to ask our partner to help, you know, create that holistic experience. Right. And yeah, That was the reason why I wanted to work with women at first was because, you know, including myself, I was just incredibly ashamed of my, my, my body, my feminine processes. And it wasn't until, you know, we were in Kim's container last year. That was the first time I actually even put a finger inside of my vagina. So if that's someone like me who already had Yoni oil and a sacred sex brand, and then just think about everyone else, like some people are even too afraid of walking into like a lingerie store even let's say I'll bring up Victoria's Secret like I remember growing up and being like oh my god like there's something about this that kind of felt a little a little forbidden so just if I am able to connect deeply to the beauty of my body from everywhere, then if I can't transmute that embarrassment and shame into empowerment, I'm not going to be able to hold space for anyone else to do the same.

SPEAKER_02: 37:06

So it's so counterintuitive, too, to what is out there in our culture with this. You know, you think about, I just think about, you know, getting in touch, right? Reconnecting to your body, right? and correct me if I'm wrong, maybe you feel differently, is really about like, first of all, finding the present, finding the breath, and being able to sit with some discomfort. And a lot of times that means slowing down. Everything in our world is so fast. I mean, you know, it's go, go, go, do, do, do, produce, produce, produce. And then so to be able to come back home to our bodies as a male or a female and just sit with, right, to reconnect, you almost have to go relearn sensations, styles of touch, right? And that can be uncomfortable, right? And I say that because I've been reading a lot of books on slow sex, right? And so when you look out there and what you're saying, it's usually bang, bang, bang, bang, bang.

UNKNOWN: 38:51

Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 38:54

I mean, for those who are out there watching porn, like that's what you see. Like it's, you know, unless you're really choosing your porn carefully. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 39:05

It's pattern driven.

SPEAKER_02: 39:06

And yeah, performance driven and definitely lacks intimacy. And, and I almost think if anybody is, People can relate when you're doing something too fast. Like I went and had my toes done the other day and I was going for the massage part. I didn't really care about the painting, but I was like, well, I'm going, then we're going to charge me any less to not get any nail polish. And it'd been almost like, I don't know, six or eight months since I'd had nail polish on my toes. And I mean, I barely felt the freaking massage because she was moving her hands so fast.

SPEAKER_00: 39:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 39:43

I don't experience or enjoy hardly any of it. As soon as she'd get to a good spot, she was on to the next.

SPEAKER_00: 39:50

Did you tell her that you would have preferred to have her stick around in that one

SPEAKER_02: 39:53

area? I said, will you please just go and really focus on the bottom of my feet? She didn't do that very long and it was still like... And so I just think about, you know, I mean, like when you're moving through the world and, you know, not everybody, you know, and you almost have to like, you have to really slow down and you have to be ready and willing to experience what is taking place. And to me, that's where the healing would occur, right? The nervous system does not respond to. Yeah, no.

UNKNOWN: 40:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 40:24

No, we don't want to be there. We don't, you know, it's, it's the overstimulation and you nailed sexual embodiment. Like, Right, right on the dot, because that's what I've had to do in this whole practice. I've actually created a deeper and bigger, more broad and expansive erotic embodiment practice where they said, don't even touch your genitalia. Just understand in your body, one, here's some breath. Here's some amazing breath tools that you can use. But in what way can you adorn? You're frozen. Am I frozen? We back? Can you hear me? Yeah, we're back. Okay. What was the

SPEAKER_02: 41:05

last thing that you heard me say? The last thing you said, well, let's go back to where you were. You brought up the breath, how you even touch the genitals.

SPEAKER_00: 41:14

Yeah. It's just, don't even touch your genitals and go back to, to breath and intention. So every embodiment, erotic embodiment practice starts with intention. And then how can you begin to put your attention into into your body and the sensations that you're feeling. Where else in your body can you explore and feel pleasure? So I used to just go and self-pleasure on my bed pretty much in the same way, although I did elevate it when we were in Kim's container. This time now I'm naked and I put music on and I dance around my office and I repeat how much I love myself and how beautiful I am. And I will... Breathe into that and those small, slight, slow touches that even just caressing my fingers upon my face and my lips and breathing into that and feeling my backside, hugging myself in this devotional, this deep, soft, self-love. I always knew that I was loving myself, but I have never loved myself to the capacity that I am today due to taking it slow, due to breathing and due to honoring this time that I have created for myself and to understand how deeply I can Yeah. So slowing it down now, like I've just explored this whole new space. And when you do that, you actually create neuroplasticity. So neuroplasticity is heavily activated during sexual encounters or just through your sexuality in general. So if I can access, it's like meditation. And another thing that they've said to us as well is, When you work with someone, you're basically asking them, what are your pleasure practices? What do you do? How much time do you take? Are you familiar with breath? And you slow them into an embodiment practice that allows them to just be. And it's within that being that people are most afraid of. But that being is what's going to allow you to excel and allow you to expand who you are. And we're also working with the Wheel of Consent through Betty Martin. And I absolutely love her work. It's pretty profound and so simple. But how can we ask for touch? Because we're very uncomfortable communicating our needs, but we don't even know them. Like, for example, hey, I want to give you, hey, Elizabeth, I want to give you a massage. And you're probably just going to say, okay. But what you should really ask is, okay, well, Jenna, who is this massage for? Is this massage for you? Because you enjoy it. because you're going to love touching me because that brings you pleasure, right? So we don't really think about certain things when people ask us, we're just trained and conditioned to endure. Just because someone is seeking permission, it goes way, way beyond touch. And how can there be more information available through accessing our hands? Because our hands are getting information in and sending information out. And so they have just as many nerve endings as our genitalia. So, you

SPEAKER_02: 44:44

know, I went through her class. I don't know if what, yeah. Oh my goodness. It was just before Kim's work, actually. I don't know if it was considered level one or what, but it was just mind blowing because she does have that wheel and it's so much more than, can I do it with you? Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 45:06

Yeah. So much more. There's four different roles you play, which is wild. You're like, what? How does that operate? How does it even work?

SPEAKER_02: 45:13

Yeah. So I was listening to this course while we were driving home from somewhere. And, you know, I was rubbing my partner's thigh and the hairs on his legs, you know, and she's like talking about like, is that for you or is that for him? You know, and I started thinking about, oh, this might not be for him at all. Right. Because I love the way the hairs feel underneath my fingertips. So am I the receiver? You know, they, she really makes you question, are you the receiver or the giver? Like what, where are you really in your mind and who is doing the giving and who is doing the receiving? Because in that note, he was also giving me, he was also giving. Right. To me, his leg, my leg. pleasure. Right. So you were, yeah, you were the receiver. I was the receiver, but

SPEAKER_00: 46:10

it was his life.

SPEAKER_02: 46:11

Right. Right. And I was the one moving my arm. So it seems like I'm, I'm, you know, giving, but, and so when you think about that in, in all realms of your life, you know, like you go so much, do you have five minutes for me to vent? Right. I mean, I don't know if you've ever like, Oh, I'm not going to answer that phone call because

SPEAKER_00: 46:35

I know it's going to be like 45 minutes to an hour. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 46:38

When you're like, Hey, yeah, I, so if, if we're always operating from this space, Hey, I really need to vent. Do you have five minutes for me? It goes beyond. And you think about this, you know, in all aspects of, of, of your life, really, which gosh, if we were all moving in that, you know, it's like my daughter asked me for a foot rub. So upon that class, I ordered three minute timers. Yes.

UNKNOWN: 47:03

Yes.

SPEAKER_02: 47:04

I have three minutes to give you a foot rub on each foot because what happens is right. I've gone beyond that. And then I resent the fact that I'm rubbing.

SPEAKER_00: 47:12

Yeah, totally. Right. And so you have

SPEAKER_02: 47:15

all these other emotions come up and she really helps you that, that her work and that book really helped you to like, again, do that reflective work.

SPEAKER_00: 47:23

Yeah. Her story is really incredible. And, you know, she asked like, when you ask someone, okay, how do you want me to touch you? oh, just rub my shoulder. That's essentially the most common thing that people say. We don't know how we like to be touched. We don't know where we want to be touched. We don't know what can be touched. So because we don't feel comfortable or there isn't any space to offer a practice of deeply understanding consent and understanding what we want, there's no way to direct it. So we're The skin and our sensation and feeling and touch is the most profound of all of our senses. And we're starving. A lot of relationships end because people are starving for touch, truly. And there's an epidemic of people not being touched enough. So... And I think it must be because we're lacking of how to talk about it and how to feel comfortable. And if I didn't grow up in a household where I was touched, in what way am I going to be able to feel comfortable getting it? I mean, it can be really, really vulnerable to ask for a deep, deep, deep needs and then just showing who you are fully and what you desire. But yeah, we've just lost

SPEAKER_02: 48:38

the keys. And then the fear of maybe, right, that rejection or a no. Yeah, that's the big one. Judgment, right? Judgment. Oh gosh, that, that touch is weird. And so we just like shut down from that altogether. But, you know, when we go back to, to sexuality, I think sometimes, right. That desire for not getting, to, to, Too much sensation, right? Could become overwhelming for the system. Yes, very much. And so let's just avoid it altogether or go so fast and get it over with and sex is over in five minutes and then we're done and we've done the deed. And you know what I mean? So you're missing- And you're happy now. Yeah. Yeah. You had the explosion, right? But you're also, there's this deeper piece missing, I think for so many- Yeah. Would you say, so what would you say the goal moving forward is? I mean, you want to help men.

SPEAKER_00: 49:58

Yeah. I mean, I, I definitely still want to help women. I'm just focusing on, on men right now.

SPEAKER_02: 50:07

Yeah. To embody their full masculinity and all the sensations and power. And we say, I'm using power with a positive connotation, positive intention behind it. Like embody their divine masculine, mind, body, and spirit. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 50:28

Slowing it down, holding space for themselves. You're safe. I think safety is the biggest one is there's not enough areas in which they can find that. Yeah. I think when it comes to working with them is asking questions and just being really, really curious and what is your story and how can I help you be seen and see you in this moment without any judgment and hold this space in a part of yourself that you've carried. Let's say you're 40, you've carried that for 40 years. And the last time you felt safe, you were in the womb. So is it possible for us to take it slow and really dive into this wound and for me to help honor what you're going through, through embodiment practices, through understanding diet and lifestyle, the, you know, where's your nervous system at? What is your level of consent? Again, with all the touch that we talked about with Betty and, you know, scar tissue remediation. And again, the spiritual component will always be beweaved through that in addition to empowering rhetoric so that they can tap back into their divine masculine and reclaim their body, even though to them it's not perfect. And then I love to intertwine the morphogenetics of the blueprint, the holographic blueprint of your foreskin is still available. Just because in this 3D form it has been removed and amputated, it doesn't mean that there isn't a part of you where it still exists. There's a part of you where you can still access that power. and having a new different perspective because if he's not healing like because a lot of these intactivists are out and about and they're so fucking angry like they they don't know what to do with it and so it's just this big victim it's a lot of victimhood consciousness you know this was I was robbed I was a victim I was taken away anger anger hate a lot of hate I've actually had to block someone who was attacking me and very hateful and I just said you have become a exactly what it is that you hate. And there is no healing there. Let's say, for example, circumcision. Oh my God, we look at our phone and we have this huge notification. Circumcision is, excuse me, is banned. Then what? That trauma is going to still exist. That If you want to change the world and you want to see difference, you got to go inside of yourself first. You got to be the change that you want to see. I mean, that's just, it's said everywhere. Everyone's saying that right now. So the victimhood is so common and it's how it keeps us disempowered. But ultimately this is your life and you had a contract, you had a soul contract. And part of that was to experience circumcision because this is a part of who gave you the tools to learn and gifts to learn who you are and who you can be out of something so traumatic. And that coming from that space is not very easy for people to understand. It's easier to be victim for sure, but you know, there's, there's no joy in that. There's no growth in that. There's no healing in that. It's like, okay, I am a victim in this one situation that happened. Okay. Now what am I going to do? What radical responsibility, what steps do I need to take? So I can be a better human so that I don't send this over to my wife, to the person at the store, to people in traffic, to my children, my family. A lot of families are ripped apart from this.

SPEAKER_02: 55:34

So I wonder, you know, when we, the power of belief, right? Bruce Lipton's work. I mean, you know, if you don't take on that belief, right, that the circumcision has impacted you in any way, would that be showing up in your life?

SPEAKER_00: 55:59

It's a really great question.

SPEAKER_02: 56:00

I mean, I don't know, but, you know, I think of, you know, I mean, it also makes me think about, you know, the COVID vaccine for those who got it and didn't want to. If they don't have the belief that it's impacting them, right, we know our mind is so powerful that, right, choosing that victimhood or choosing a mindset of empowerment and how, you know, if you don't believe that the COVID vaccine has impacted you, it might not.

SPEAKER_00: 56:43

Yeah, that's a very beautiful, valid point. And I would go as to say is, yeah. I had it in my head while you were talking kind of, let's see. Cause there's a lot of circumcised men out there. It's the trauma is still living in the body is one way in which I would.

SPEAKER_02: 57:03

Yeah. Part of the brain. I was thinking about that. And so now that scar, I mean, I've, you know, that's predominantly who I've been with this circumcised is circumcised men. That scar feels different than other scars. I feel like. In what way? Oh, Lee, I don't know. I mean, it doesn't like, like the scar from my back surgery feels very raised and different than, I don't know if I've ever noticed a scar. I mean, right. It's where that color discoloration is. Correct. Typically. Is that correct?

SPEAKER_00: 57:44

Yeah. And scar tissue breeds more scar tissue. So it clogs all the neurological pathways and then your nervous system and cells and nerves. So it will start to kind of web out, like think about endometriosis, right? It's like this webbing of this constant scar tissue that keeps growing. Unfortunately, if your scars are not worked on holistically and you're moving that tissue for regrowth and regeneration, it will start to affect other areas of the body. Like there is this phenomenon that I just like ran into, and maybe it's not a phenomenon, maybe it's just obvious, but I was talking to a really good friend of mine. And he said that all of his life, he's had this crazy burning sensation behind his belly button. And he can't really understand what it is, but sometimes it's difficult to sleep because it keeps him up at night. And he remembers when he was a kid playing with his friends, they would also complain about this crazy burning sensation behind their belly button. And so I was like, you know what? I'm in this program. Let me ask Ellen Heade. I'm going to get on top of this. And thank you for bringing this to my attention. And so I was telling a friend of mine, let's say like a month and a half ago. And he was like, no shit. He was like, I get the same thing. And I was like, Are you serious? He was like, yeah, but I've always just shrugged it off. And I never thought about anything of it. I was like, yeah, I think it's stemming from the scar. And then I was like, well, let me ask everyone. Cause you know, I have all these, I have like a group of men that they're like my team. We're all out there like trying to figure things out and talking to people. It's this beautiful network. And I asked everybody, I was like, Hey, well, one, I asked my control group. I reached out to intact men. They're like, no, I don't know what you're talking about. And about 60% of the men that I asked if they felt this sensation behind their belly button, they're like, oh yeah. So it's traveling their body and causing abdominal sharpness and pain. And ultimately, if it's in the abdominal wall, that's going to affect your posture. You're going to hunch forward because if you start to stretch it, then what? It hurts. It's painful. And then if you're hunching and your posture is starting to come out of alignment, what other type of compensation patterns are going to exist? How is your pelvic health? How are you now going to the bathroom? What's your digestion like now? Because everything again is flexing forward and there's really no space for the body to move in the way that it was designed to move. And it can all stem from something as, I don't want to say as small because it's one of the biggest scars that exist, but something as you would never think to consider a circumcision scar.

SPEAKER_02: 1:00:15

Well, you know, that reminds me of a conversation I had with Robert Glean up in Canada. He's a fascial stretch therapist. And when he opened up cadaver, it was an appendix scar. They actually followed the fascia. It was, it went down to the back of the hamstring at the hamstring insertion point. So, you know, this person had been had hamstring, you know, hamstring issues and this, that, and the other, but that, that those hamstring issues actually originated from the initial incision due to an appendix removal.

SPEAKER_00: 1:00:49

Yeah. Cause that's also deeply connected to the psoas and the psoas, it connects the front, the top of the body to the bottom part of the body.

UNKNOWN: 1:00:57

Right.

SPEAKER_00: 1:00:57

So if that, again, that hunching, then I mean, I see it all the time. So yeah, that's one thing that we've been studying is the removal of the appendix and how bad it really is and deathly, but at the same time, you know, it can be healed through a lot of scar tissue work.

SPEAKER_02: 1:01:18

Yeah. And that was, that's what makes, okay. So, you know, and then in another one with Brooke McFoyle, we were talking about actually both and then another gal too, also. And I think even in Kim's work, she talks about scars. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 1:01:32

Not lidocaine, Novocaine, the neuro injections. It's the only, it's the only allopathic thing that she does.

SPEAKER_02: 1:01:41

Yeah, for scar work. And I know there's, now this gentleman in Canada, he uses a microcurrent therapy.

SPEAKER_00: 1:01:48

Yeah, I've heard of it.

SPEAKER_02: 1:01:49

That helps to break up scar tissue. But Brooke recommended rubbing these scars, right? So it would make sense that the lingam massage could help or even yoni massage for scar tissue that's created down in the genitals and the pelvic region.

SPEAKER_00: 1:02:08

Yes. Cause you can do hands in or hands on work. Right. And one thing that is actually really interesting is, you know, when the scars are worked on and adding in that ability, like the posture starts to change and any pro cause that's essentially what a lot of prolapses are in women and they're suffering from, you Yeah, there's prolapses in their uteruses falling in and out of themselves. So in addition to thinking about this scar tissue work, it's also what has that scar tissueing done to your nervous system and how else can you regulate it? So we've also been learning a lot about the sphincters, the internal sphincters and the external sphincters and how they hold the majority of the trauma and all of the tension. It's the biggest nervous system regulator that you can do in the body. And it has to happen in a very safe, safe space. So, I mean, there's just these different kinds of ways that you can support scar tissue remediation. It's not just specifically, you know, liver, liver packing or like castor oil packing and castor oil is going to be the biggest like supplement to, to help remediate and to get the tissue to, to heal, to heal itself and understanding how to get into the tissue of the body. But yeah, when like, cesareans, even rough sex can cause scar tissue in the vaginal walls, natural childbirth, anything. Most of us are walking around with some form of scar tissue in our genitals or in our organs in general, inside of our body. So now you've

SPEAKER_02: 1:03:50

moved, I think.

SPEAKER_00: 1:03:52

Yes. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 1:03:53

I am back in Austin. Okay. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 1:03:56

And

SPEAKER_02: 1:03:57

now are you working with clients one-on-one? Are you, I know you're in, you're in this right training right now. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 1:04:05

Yeah. I have a lot of, a lot of these guys come to me. So they're kind of like my case studies as I'm going through training and getting all the information that I need, but I'm already starting to slowly take people on as, as clients for just, you know, understanding where they are in their, their physical and practices or how they are slowing down. And it's also just really similar to yoga. So the fact that I did yoga for 11 years and then I'm here, it's still a lot of the same thing. And unless like it's going to be more difficult to work or get someone deeply in some of these practices who don't already have some form of yoga practice, Pilates practice or some type of intentional like physicality of any sort. But yeah, and you know, people ask me for advice. I'm helping someone right now work on a lot of bruising that he has that he really can't get rid of due to blood stagnation. So lifestyle changes and just holding space and listening because a lot of these men, I'll be honest, on a Zoom call with them and it'll be one-on-one and they'll be like, I can't believe I'm telling you these things. I've never even vocalized. I've never allowed this to come out of my body. And even that has been very profound. And I've got men all over the country All over the world, actually, there's one in New Zealand who I find to be very sweet. And there's another one in London and they're just from everywhere. And it's actually worse for the ones in countries where circumcision isn't even that popular because just like intact man here in America get bullied by circumcised men, it's the opposite. So the circumcised men are the minority and they're just like, wow, look at you. You got stripped to a board and you were genitally mutilated. That sucks. And they get to see their friends enjoying 80%. They're whole, they're whole. And you can even notice the difference. I can tell you the difference of my own experience between an intact man and his level of consciousness and his ability to respond opposed to react And then when I look more in circumcised men, it's so different. The behavior just is ultimately completely changed because there's a lot of damage to the amygdala. Like the brain will never go back to baseline, ever. It changes the composition of the psyche of who he turns into.

SPEAKER_02: 1:06:33

So would you say that you are working with the men that find you? Is there an age group that... are more open to exploring, digging, doing the digging work to find out, hey, you know, I want to fix this,

SPEAKER_00: 1:06:51

want to do the work? Yeah, from early 20s all the way up to 40s so far. Actually, I have had some older men reach out to me because some of them do really anonymously.

SPEAKER_01: 1:07:03

you

SPEAKER_00: 1:07:03

know, they're kind of incognito behind certain Instagram accounts and they don't even have an image on their profile and that, you know, they still connect and ask. So, and I know that a lot of older, like 50, 60, 70s men have come to me saying, you know, I'm so lucky I was never cut. And I also never really had anyone to talk to this about. And I mean, even intact men are like, you've helped me feel like it's okay. And I love my foreskin now because you've held the space for me. So this just goes as for everybody i mean men are incredibly emasculated throughout culture you know you're this or you're not and like it sucks for you if you're this and it sucks for you if you're not it just it's they're suffering and no one's really holding that space because no one is connected to their genitalia like why are we cutting babies after they come out of the womb and we're cutting their genitals well because we're disconnected from our genitals what Exactly. Yeah. So, so where's the compassion? Where's the empathy? Where's the ability to really see what's happening? I'm dissociated. I'm disconnected. Who cares? But I don't mean that in like a rude way, but it's just kind of like it, it doesn't connect because it's a, it's a motor sensory amnesia. We, a lot of people, the majority of people are walking around with numb genitalia. There's no sensation anymore because where there's no blood flow, where there's no access, where there's no connection, what happens? Stagnation disease.

SPEAKER_02: 1:08:25

Yeah. Now, do you think we will see a trend? I know that, I mean, as I said, my son was born almost 23 years ago and there are definitely, he has definitely his friends and I definitely knew parents around that time who were not choosing not to circumcise. I also know I grew up in a family with just girls. So it wasn't even something, you know, I mean, I just don't remember that many even little boys in our life, one or two. So I don't even know what they did. If I were to guess, they were circumcised. You know, we were a religious family. We grew up in the Methodist home. So most people who I would say are Christian are circumcising. You know, due to religious beliefs, but I'm, I wonder if we'll see more of a trend because I would say still like the people that I have met along the way and over the years, there's, there's probably, it's probably 50, you know, 50, 50. There's probably of the parents that have the mom friends that I am close with quite a few of them don't have circumcised boys.

SPEAKER_00: 1:09:46

Yeah. More people are waking up to it, but nobody's talking about it. That's the thing. Yeah. So yeah. Did COVID or, you know, in 2020, everything happened. It was just mass awakening that went down. Yeah, absolutely. And are people more willing to hear what's happening? Yeah. And believe it. Sure. But they're not. acting upon doing anything. And that's the problem. It's nobody is using, you know, their authority and their throat chakra to tell more people. Because again, like I've had people really close to me saying, Jenna, why do you talk about this? This is just something you don't talk about. You just don't talk about it. And I was like, even more of a reason to talk about it. The things that we're not supposed to talk about are the things that give us the most amount of power. And I just, yeah, I hope to see more people having the courage because it takes a lot, a lot of courage. To go against the grain and specifically about circumcision. I don't think it gets any more controversial than this. And I had someone who was in our circumcision call and he is from India. Beautiful spirit. He actually moved from India just to come to America so he could be an intactivist and help. Because, you know, they don't do it there. And the way he was brought up, he doesn't understand how there's not some serious consequences. And I said, you know what, like circumcision in the United States is the sky is blue. That's how deep this is. This isn't just something that's just like, you know, you do and it goes way, way deeper. way back and the, the claws in the psyche and the hold within the tissue and who we are. It's, it's stubborn. It's strong. It's offended. It's get mad. It's reject. It's push away and run away. You know, I've lost a lot of relationships due to my voice and I'm like, okay, well, so be it. And I just hold space for that's where they are. And that's okay. It truly is.

UNKNOWN: 1:11:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 1:11:51

I forget you're, you're younger than me. I'm 47. I'm 37. Okay. I've been listening to the wisdom of menopause by Christiane Northrup.

SPEAKER_00: 1:12:01

Oh, I love her.

SPEAKER_02: 1:12:02

Oh my gosh. Well, this book is fantastic. And that need, especially for us as women, as we go through menopause to speak up and find our truth is so, I mean, you know, I feel like, yeah, like you, I, I, early on, like was kind of like living my truth for a hot minute. And people were like, what is she doing now? You know, gosh, she vaccinate, she had a home birth, this, that, you know, all these things along the way, which, but it becomes even more important for all of us to really, and that throat chakra, that's why so many women, I think, and I don't know, I mean, it's definitely more women, I think, who find themselves with thyroid conditions, Or underperforming thyroid because they're not speaking up. They're not using that voice and how important it is for find that. So I really, you know, commend you for, you know, speaking your truth because it's not easy and you do lose relationships and people don't always understand why you are making decisions. the decisions that you are and guess what? That's okay. And as, as you continue to like lean, you know, I was listening to Layla Martin and I think it was Eva Clay the other day. And first of all, they talk about the sexual holistic sexual wellness industry is going to explode over the next couple of years. And I mean, because we're all starved. Yeah, but there is a problem. We're starving.

SPEAKER_00: 1:13:40

Yeah, but there's a problem with all the sexual wellness that is thriving because it's all these products that are capitalizing on all of our trauma.

SPEAKER_02: 1:13:49

Yeah.

UNKNOWN: 1:13:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 1:13:51

Because like we're so dissociated and I'm pretty sure I've even heard Laysla talk. She's not really that much of a fan of vibrators. You know, it's like, it's over-stimulation. You brought that up earlier. And like hurry and be done. Like you're not, that permits the full experience of the nervous system to really enact upon engorgement, to enact upon natural lubrication. You know, we're putting on all this lube and then lube is huge for circumcised men because they don't have a foreskin. they it's going to be friction. How else are they going to get some form of glide and some natural like warmth and moisture to be able to work the shaft of the penis. Right. And so I remember, cause I debuted a lore in Nashville at this convention called stimulate. And there were a lot of sex therapists there and a lot of cosmetic. I was very disappointed. There was like some labiaplasty plastic surgeons there. And I'm just like, we are this like, dissociated and cutting our own genitalia off because of the porn. and what looks good. And a lot of women are in performance. And so underneath the layer, like if we're not talking about our trauma within sexual wellness, what are we creating? Because nobody is talking about the trauma. Nobody is talking about circumcision. Nobody is talking about the fact that women hate their vagina. They hate their genitals. They can't feel. They're numb. They're dry. I mean, you know the drill. So I'm happy that it's coming in part of the conversation, but it's wrapped still in a lot of shame. And up until we choose to look at the trauma and look into circumcision and how it's not only affecting him, but her, I think it's honestly, I'm going to say, I think it's bullshit. Truly.

SPEAKER_02: 1:15:34

Yeah. Yeah. I agree. I hear you. And yeah, you know, you were, oh gosh, I know we could probably talk forever. I was thinking, you know, even just in the last year for me, right. To sit down, whether you're male or female and really take the time to figure out, right. what you like, what you don't, you know, like you, as you mentioned candles, maybe you said lights, music, right? You dance. Oh yeah. Right. I mean all these, right. So it's much more. And it's funny how when I take the time, right. To build, carve out and create self-pleasure, not even to the point of orgasm per se in my own life, feelings like, oh gosh, guilt. Like you have to like, you have to check yourself. Like you can go in like, oh my God, why would I feel guilt? Oh, I have 900 other things to do. Or like, what is it that's going on behind? You know, it's like, well, I just spent an hour and a half making myself feel good. Right. And that, guess what? That's okay. Exactly. Right. There's just so much messaging around. And I'm sure for men, too, you know, and for everybody right around sexual shame and trauma and worthiness, whatever. I don't know. Like, that's part where you have to go in and actually, like, do the work in order to find out what's going to come up for you. Yeah. All of that bullshit. That doesn't serve you. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 1:17:12

Yeah. Yeah. You know, I think I might add to your earlier statement about, you know, what is it like to really get into pleasure and heal? Like first, I think you have to believe that you deserve it. Right. Then you can slow down. Like first you have to make the decision that I know there's something better here. I know that this could give me more. And it's that desire that allows them to fully commit and have the accountability to, to, to, to, to, do the work. I mean, it's, it's a mother fucker and slowing in. Like I'm lucky that, you know, I get to work from home and, you know, I, I curate my own schedule and I will mark off an hour, turn the music on. And I just, I go and I'm like, Oh shit, it's already been an hour. So, so yeah. Like I remember even telling men, like, you know, when we were in Kim's container, gosh, I would love to have a three hour session. And they'd be like, what? That sounds horrible. Yeah. I was like, what do you mean? Like, how does that sound horrible? Who has time for that? Oh, like, you know, but again, and what, where are they slowing down with themselves and seeing through this portal of, of what's available to, to in pleasure, what's available for connection. Again, if you're not connecting to yourself, you can't. Yeah. Connect with your partner.

SPEAKER_02: 1:18:33

Right. It's that, that deep fear of intimacy because three hours they're like, I mean, I've, I've heard that before. What? I know there's other things. This, this, and okay. Well, but that real, I don't know. I think that deeper healing occurs there in that, in the slow. Yeah. And you know, and it can be uncomfortable. Right. Cause you get in your head. Transformation is uncomfortable and things might come up. Memories might come up, come up, you know, experiences or situations you may be reminded of, but it's the perfect opportunity, you know, to alchemize this stuff that doesn't work in your life anymore. That could be holding you back from like the expression of your full authentic self.

SPEAKER_00: 1:19:25

Yeah. And what are you attracting from being unhealed? what is the mirror right like everything is it being experienced internally first but we're bred to look outside of ourselves to understand us but it's it's the opposite so in how is my world reflecting my trauma how is my world reflecting my dissociation and disembodiment from my co-creative cock, my co-creative pussy, whatever that is. So it's a reclamation. It's, it's taking your power back. I mean, that's the biggest middle finger to the industry, to the system is, you know what? Fuck off. I have power and I'm going to use it and I'm going to do it. And then your consciousness just explodes. And then there you are. And then all of a sudden you tap into more spirit, more wisdom, more connection, more people. I mean, it doesn't stop. Like, I just feel like it's just this constant movement, spiral, expansive, just It's a symphony.

SPEAKER_02: 1:20:24

Yeah. And, you know, I had Dr. Mauro Zapaterra on. I

SPEAKER_00: 1:20:30

have to listen to that one.

SPEAKER_02: 1:20:32

I love

SPEAKER_00: 1:20:32

his work.

SPEAKER_02: 1:20:33

Well, and that's, you know, the cerebral spinal fluid, right? Moving up the spine up to the pineal gland, right? So amazing.

SPEAKER_01: 1:20:40

Right? And

SPEAKER_02: 1:20:40

so you bring that energy, right? And you can tap into it on your own, right? And that sexual energy is going to be a part of that, that breath work, all those.

SPEAKER_00: 1:20:48

Yeah.

UNKNOWN: 1:20:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 1:20:49

Those modalities. And then you bring that with, you combine that with, you know, a beloved,

SPEAKER_00: 1:20:54

right? Yeah. And so one thing, I don't know if he spoke to this, he mentioned this to you, but are you familiar with the dura? The dura that wraps the spinal cord and the vertebrae, the spinal cord rather. I

SPEAKER_02: 1:21:08

don't, I'd almost have to go back and listen again. So

SPEAKER_00: 1:21:11

through... Our sexuality through nervous system regulation, through scar tissue remediation, through sphincter work, what you can do. So over time, if you have all this scar tissue, trauma, an accident, whatever, it's emotion. So the dura, it wraps itself like a sausage casing over the spinal cord. and it goes all the way up to the brainstem. And when this is tightened, constricted, and there's not much movement, then the synovial fluid, not the synovial, is it synovial fluid? I know it's spinal fluid, but I think it is synovial. Yeah, it's the synovial fluid that goes up and down, I'm pretty sure. Or is it the synovial fluid that's inside the discs between the vertebrae?

SPEAKER_02: 1:21:57

No, the synovial fluid is-

SPEAKER_00: 1:21:58

Is in the discs.

SPEAKER_02: 1:22:00

Yeah, but I- Are you talking about what's in the cerebral spinal fluid, that fluid?

SPEAKER_00: 1:22:04

Yeah. Is it, is it?

SPEAKER_02: 1:22:05

Remember- which I really didn't is it's amniotic fluid.

SPEAKER_00: 1:22:10

Okay. So when you

SPEAKER_02: 1:22:12

think you're, is that what you're talking about?

SPEAKER_00: 1:22:14

Well, the fluid, whatever the spinal fluid is, I was just trying to go a level deeper into like what it actually was like the anatomical term, but we don't even have to go there. But it

SPEAKER_02: 1:22:23

does originate from amniotic fluid when we were in utero. So that's like the basis of the spinal fluid is that amniotic fluid.

SPEAKER_00: 1:22:30

Yeah. And it's rich. It's really rich. And so when the dura is super tight and The movement is not going to be as accessible, but it is through these practices in which you can unlock and the dura will unwrap and unravel. And it will give all of this flow, but you're not going to be able to fully get the flow and the movement up the spinal cord if the dura is really tight. So I found that to be interesting. So through this work, yeah, you can see and watch people's duras unravel.

UNKNOWN: 1:23:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 1:23:00

Yeah. Amazing. Yeah. He and I are, we're going to have a part two. I don't know when, because I felt like I barely, it was an hour and 20 minutes and all this, and I, you know, just, it's just a drop in the bucket of questions that I had for him. It was he's, he's an amazing guy and I love his

SPEAKER_00: 1:23:20

work. Yeah. Ask him about the Dura and see if he says anything about the restriction of it and how it can prevent the movement and flow.

SPEAKER_02: 1:23:30

Yeah. Because what it's, you know, with the scoliosis and the spinal fusion, I was curious. And then with those, um, with multiple sclerosis or neurodegenerative, you know, diseases, uh, what, um, how that might impact the flow as well. I was curious. And he said he had some theories. It might take three or four hours to, to, to,

SPEAKER_01: 1:23:49

to. Yeah. So,

SPEAKER_02: 1:23:53

um, well, where can people connect with you? I know I'm, I have connected with you on Instagram, but where can they find you today? I mean, it's the same, but.

SPEAKER_00: 1:24:04

Yes, my personal Instagram, which has basically become everything that I do with circumcision and somatic sex education. And my website, it's jennamcclelland.co. Okay.

SPEAKER_02: 1:24:21

So jennamcclelland.co

SPEAKER_00: 1:24:22

and then

SPEAKER_02: 1:24:24

jennamcclelland, right? On Instagram, that's it.

SPEAKER_00: 1:24:26

Yeah, it's Jenna underscore McClelland underscore. And then I also have a YouTube channel where I've been interviewing a lot of specialist people in the field who are equally as having a part in circumcision and advocacy. So you can also find me on YouTube, which is available on my Instagram or on my website. Okay. Okay, great. Thanks so much for joining me. Thank you for having me. So good to see

SPEAKER_02: 1:24:55

you. Yeah, likewise. I might head down to Texas soon. You should. Yeah, you definitely should. Yeah. All right. Well, thanks again.