The Desire & Intimacy Revival featuring Eleni Economides, Sexual Wellness & Intimacy Coach

In this episode of The Intimacy & Desire Revival, Elena and I dive deep into the truth behind low libido — why so many women experience it, how to understand what’s really going on beneath the surface, and the empowering steps to rekindle desire. We explore what’s “normal,” unpack the difference between spontaneous and responsive sexual desire, and share how to reconnect with your body, your partner, and your pleasure — without shame or pressure.

Connect with Eleni Economides: 

Website: www.newintimacy.com 

Instagram: @thelibidocoach

My book, 29 Days: The Self-Love Leap is your guide to making 29 meaningful, healthy lifestyle changes - one per day - that will help you unlock the best version of yourself.  These aren't overwhelming, unrealistic goals.  They're practical, empowering steps that fit into your daily life and help you create habits that promote self-love, balance, and optimal health. 

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Transcript

SPEAKER_04: 1:17

Okay.

SPEAKER_01: 1:20

Welcome back to today's episode of Unapologetic Living. I'm Elizabeth Elliott. I'm your hostess and I am excited to have uh the libido coach. No, that's not her real name, but that's how I found her on Instagram. Uh her name is Elaine Economides.

SPEAKER_03: 1:37

Perfect.

SPEAKER_01: 1:38

Okay. Asex certified sex therapist, sexual wellness and intimacy coach. And I have been for so first of all, welcome.

SPEAKER_00: 1:53

Thank you. Thank you for having me.

SPEAKER_01: 1:55

And I'm glad we connected. I know that I was drawn to your name on Instagram. Um, and partly because of prior personal experience, knowing that I felt like I had no libido, nothing was working. And uh, you know, I was in a relationship at that time, wondering, I'm broken, this, that, and the other. And but then found out it wasn't necessarily any of that. And I think it had more to do with uh feelings of unsafety. And he wasn't unsafe, but uh there was just some, I guess, nervous system. I'm not sure, right? Let's just put it as that. And so yeah, and so I'm, you know, was like I'm broke, I'm broken. I must not be interested in sex, I must not want it. And that's just wasn't, I learned not true. Um and it wasn't due to lack of orgasm. That wasn't it. I always had an orgasm. So I know that's not always the case for a lot of women. I know that the orgasm gap is there and it's real, um, but that has never been my experience. So so yeah. Yeah, and then you know, we're I'm at 47, um, and I know a lot of women begin to go into this age of perimenopause, uh, and or they are suffering with maybe an autoimmune condition, or they just think that the libido is gone. And and and I don't know that I necessarily agree, but for whatever circumstances or journey they've been on at this point, it might be let's say dormant.

SPEAKER_00: 3:59

Yeah, yeah, or at least it feels that way. And because we expect it to be like it used to, or we want it to be like it used to, because we think that's how it should be, we don't we're not really looking for other ways to access it. We just wait for it to be there, want it for it to be available, and when it's not, we kind of panic or we just feel hopeless and helpless. And um, there are so many different ways to understand female sexual desire and just sexuality in general, and I would love to talk about some of that here today. Um, can you hear me and see me okay? I think that you'll get it's the connection might be a little bit more.

SPEAKER_01: 4:46

Oh, is you I can hear and see you okay. I haven't had any issues, but if I do, maybe I'll like wave my hands because every once in a while I might I'm like okay, and maybe you're freezing a little bit for me, but oh really, okay.

SPEAKER_00: 4:58

As long as you hear me, that's fine. You're freezing a little bit for me, yes. So um but but before you so yes, can you tell me?

SPEAKER_01: 5:07

I I don't know, maybe you were about to go into this. Uh you know, what drew you to this work? Oh, it says my internet connection is unstable. Okay, it's gone. Hopefully it hangs in there. Um, what drew you to this work?

SPEAKER_00: 5:25

What drew me to this work? Yeah. I believe I heard your question. Okay, okay. So uh I don't know how far I should start, how far back, but anyways, um I I came to the United States from Greece to do my master's in marriage and family therapy. And after I did that, I worked for a couple years in community mental health, and then I met my husband, and I became uh I became pregnant and then became a stay-home mom for six years. Okay. Then when I had uh, you know, uh when it was time for me to go back to work because I I really needed to start having adult conversations. I was at home with three young kids and I felt really like I was losing myself. So I needed to go back to work. The only thing that made sense was for me to start my own practice so I can make my own schedule and accommodate my family. So I started a small private practice, and I knew that I wanted to work with couples because I just had a passion for couples therapy. Plus, I needed to help myself and my relationship with my husband and the changes that had happened with having, you know, transitioning from a couple that's in love to a couple that's now married, committed, long-term relationship with kids, right? A lot of changes. And uh so I focused all my energy in learning more about couples therapy, seeing couples, learning from them. And what became obvious a few years into it, two or three years into it, uh, was that unless we talked, well, couples came to couples therapy to improve their communication and their connection, right? Secretly hoping that that will improve things in the bedroom. They would they would they would never really come, nobody intended, um, to couples therapy because they had sexual issues. They would come because our communication is not is broken or we feel disconnected. But unless I asked about sex, they wouldn't tell me about it. They would just hope it it worked out, right? So what I saw was happening was things would get better for a little bit, communication would improve, connection would improve, and now sex was on the table for them on their end. If one of them was struggling with something sexually, whether it was low libido, difficulty climaxing, some sort of performance anxiety, then they would unconsciously sabotage the communication and the connection. And then we would so it's sort of like we would go in circles, like it felt like, oh, we we got past this point. Why are we still there? Why are we coming back to this? Right? And um, and when I started asking about sex, it became obvious that there was a sticking point in their sex life that they were hoping was just going to be dissolved by improving communication and connection, but it wasn't. So I I started learning how to be more comfortable talking about sex with my couples and more knowledgeable, that which is what led me to my sex therapy certification, because it was like the missing piece in couples therapy that I could actually like help couples transform their relationship in a more sort of um uh consistent and sustainable way. So that was in 2017 that uh I became a sex therapist, and since then I've been seeing couples um and do I've been doing sex therapy with couples, individuals, men, women, um, the whole uh galaxy. But through that work, what also became very clear was this common dynamic of like what brings couples to couples or sex therapies this desire discrepancy, meaning one person wants sex more than the other, right? Which is a normal thing because all couples have it, but many of us don't know what to make of it or don't know how to talk about it. So instead we avoid it or we fight about it, which is what then brings us to couples therapy. Okay. So the most common dynamic, like 70% of the time, the person with low libido is the woman, there's this other 30% that is the man. Um, so from that work, um working with women with low libido and figuring out ways to bring sexual intimacy alive in the relationship and to help them reconnect with their sexual energy, became this sort of like I developed this program for women with low libido, and it's it's sort of like the thing that I love to do and help women with. I was a woman with low libido, in my I am now. I'm I'm considered the low libido one, but I have found ways to um lean into my sexuality, my sex, my responsive sexual desire, and I have shifted my mindset about sex and the purpose it serves in my life that has made all the difference in the world, which comes to we come saying that we come to what you were saying about feeling unsafe. Like it's a very common feeling that holds us back from being comfortable sexually, and and we can get into that more if you want, but I want to pause here because I said a lot.

SPEAKER_01: 11:37

Yeah, to see if you yeah, well, unsafe, you know. So I teach yoga, and it took me a minute to realize like that's really what I was feeling in a sense, also um from a physiological point of view, uh as a you know, a functional medicine health coach, and you know, what I have learned is that if you're feeling unsafe, right, your body is going to naturally and intuitively, physiologically, not even want it, right? Because it's not interested in having to, and if you don't feel safe and provided for, that root chakra isn't solid, then you're not trying to make babies. Right. And although that's not the only purpose of sex, right? It's for pleasure as well. You're not you're in a state of fight or flight, and and a chronic state of stress is not conducive to nurturing a growing fetus. So, you know, there so physiologically this is taking place, but energetically and emotionally it's also taking place, right? Because you can't really dissect one from the other. And so um if that makes sense. So, you know, you have this uh again, if you don't feel safe, the body also is not going to surrender emotionally and physically. Vulnerability release and and you know, make that orgasm face that's so goofy or whatever, right? I was watching this, uh, you know, like it's just interesting, right? You've got to feel so comfortable in order to in order to let go.

SPEAKER_00: 15:23

Did you know why you didn't feel safe or comfortable? Because you said the partner was not safe.

SPEAKER_01: 15:29

Yeah, I knew why, because we financially there were things about it. Do I there were things about that relationship for sure that did not feel safe? I also felt like um look, this is the father of my kids, and so I mean, he is a good man, but there was I was constantly um uh just the way we set up our home and our financial situation, I was constantly um drowning.

SPEAKER_00: 16:23

Okay, so you were anxious and stressed out about the financial situation.

SPEAKER_01: 16:27

It was just stress, and so that alone, but I could have an orgasm every time. Okay, was a desire and to do it, but we did it, right? We made sure I always did it. Okay, okay, so in that regard, I also negated maybe some days, but I also see the value in cultivating that sort of um, oh gosh, it's a you know, it's a lot.

SPEAKER_00: 16:55

Yeah, we don't need to get to like too much into the personal stuff.

SPEAKER_01: 16:59

Like when I look at energetically, like from the yogic energetic centers, the root chakra has to feel really comfortable, or the sacral chakra, the sexual energy chakra isn't interested. They build on one another.

SPEAKER_00: 17:13

For sure, right? That's why it's almost like you know, stress is not good for anything. Yeah, it's not good for our eating habits, it's not good for our sleeping habits, it's not it's just not good for us, right? Yeah, it throws the nervous system off, and we it's hard to find balance, right? Now, of course, that's over here, right? What could impact a woman's libido, stress and sleep, lack of proper eating, for sure, right? When you have stress hormones in your body, your sexual energy cannot flow that freely. But but before even when there is no stress, a lot of women experience low libido. Okay, so and perimenopause is a time or menopause that when there are hormonal changes, that can be part of it. But the kind of low libido that I'm kind of working with women and helping them with is the kind that is sort of um things are great in the first the beginning of the relationship, and sexual energy is flowing, and we're having sex, we feel comfortable, and then all of a sudden things like change and you start losing your desire for sex, and you feel like it starts to feel like a chore and an obligation, and something you just do for the other person because you know, if you don't give to them, you feel guilty, or they make you feel guilty, and sort of it becomes this perpetual negative cycle that you start to dread sex, right? Sometimes you know that also means that your sexual pleasure is down. Sometimes you're not able, you don't feel much down there, right? So, so that of course, having kids is usually this the place where this starts, right? Because both hormonal changes, our body changes, another person shows up in the family, time is less, sleep is less. So it's a very natural reason why our libido is lower.

SPEAKER_01: 19:36

But and I also want to add there real quick that I know sometimes there can be birth trauma that can contribute. Sure.

SPEAKER_00: 19:46

Yeah, of course, of course, but and then you know you have to like add the identity of a mother into who you are, and oftentimes a mother and a sexual person are in conflict, yeah. As identities, yeah, at least that's how we are raised to think about it, right? Once you become a mother, there is a sense of like purity, and sort of like uh uh your role now is to take care of other people and to you know mother them. You become sacrificial, and sexual pleasure and sexual desire is not a sacrificial thing, it's like something that you do for you.

SPEAKER_01: 20:34

Yeah, yeah, and then you also have, I know when I was a mom, um, well, I'm a mom, but minor minor grown. And you know, by the end of the day, I didn't want to be touched by one more human, you know.

SPEAKER_00: 20:53

Yeah, because because the touch it was part of you giving.

SPEAKER_02: 20:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 20:59

Yeah, giving something to your yes, your kids would touch you because they wanted something, right? Now, the touch that's for sexual pleasure, it doesn't have to be giving, it can be received. Yeah, but when it doesn't function as receiving and it feels like as giving, then you don't want another person touching you.

SPEAKER_02: 21:21

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 21:23

Absolutely. So learning how to have that be receiving versus giving, yeah, it is the goal because I mean it starts when we are so young as little girls, right? We are taught to be scared of sex. To let me explain, to we are taught to have mixed feelings about sex, right? Sex can be dangerous, sex is could be um immoral, uh uh you know, cheap, shallow, dirty. You know, if you have it too early, somehow maybe your morality is of uh, you know, your questionable character, if you have it with too many people, then maybe again, you know, you should be trusted to in a relationship. You name it, and god forbid you enjoy it, then you probably are you know easy or something, or somehow you are like a little bit slutty, right? Yeah, so very early on, we are trained in our lives to abstain from it and save it for love, save it for commitment. Make sure you have it with someone that loves you and cares about you, right? Because if you have it just for the sake of pleasure, you somehow now are under the microscope of what kind of person are you that you would have sex for pleasure as a woman, because as a man, that is not a problem, right? Men, men are supposed to be sexual, seek sexual pleasure. There is no judgment on them for that.

SPEAKER_01: 26:07

Right. Oh, yeah, that's the message.

SPEAKER_00: 26:09

So, yeah, so we learn to not have a good relationship with sex, to feel unsafe when sex is around or sexual attention comes to us, because we are sort of like them if we do and them if we don't. If we like it and we want it, we will be judged. If we don't like it and we don't want it, we will be judged. We will be, you know, consider, you know, we're considered crude or frigid or somehow uh I don't know. Um so so we develop this ambivalent negative relationship with sex that uh it's it's only okay to have it when we feel loved and connected and there's commitment. Okay, and that's a big part of the reason why unless a woman feels emotionally connected and close to her partner, she doesn't feel open to sex, she doesn't feel the desire for sexual intimacy. Are you following this? Do you understand?

SPEAKER_02: 27:22

Oh, yes, yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 27:24

Yes, yes. Uh because we are trained to think that way, that in order for you to want sex, love, commitment, and connection should be present because having it without those is somehow uh not not good for you, not good about your character, your reputation, your think you are. Uh so that doesn't go away. Even if you are married with a person that you know they love you, unless you experience this moment of connection and closeness, your brain is going to say to to shut down desire, to shut down say no. Even if your body actually has signs of arousal, like kind of feels a little bit turned on or would be open to sex, we prioritize the mental side of are the circumstances right for me to be having sex than the physical part. Like I feel turned on, but I'm kind of mad at him. So no, I'm not gonna have sex because he shouldn't have done that. And uh, do you see what I'm saying? Yeah, so so now I'm mad at him and I'm pissed off, and I could have sex, but no, until he apologizes, I'm not gonna have sex because I won't feel connected or close to him until he apologized, right?

SPEAKER_01: 28:52

Although I do think there can be some healing and just doing the sex anyway, in my opinion.

SPEAKER_00: 28:59

If you if you have a good relationship with sex, yes, if you have a bad relationship with sex, the concept of sex, right? So we want to change our relationship with sex itself as a concept, so that we can use it for our pleasure, you can use it to heal and make amends and sort of like um come together with our partner after a fight. Yeah, yeah, but otherwise, it feels like something we're giving and letting another person take from us because somehow that's what we're good for too then. Yeah, that's what we're doing. And then we feel all sorts of negative feelings, like we're not important enough, like we're objectified, that we are you know only there for his pleasure, if our relationship with sex is not good.

SPEAKER_01: 30:01

Yeah, yeah, I um yeah, I hear hear you. Um so you mentioned if we could step back just a bit, a lot of times you see this when uh a woman becomes a mother. But then not every woman are mothers. I also feel as though you know you hear it with just individuals over time. What's so easy in the beginning gets almost more difficult the longer you're in it. Um, and I think that's where I went through this class and she you used the term clearing the glass. So if you have this glass between you and your partner and it gets smudgy, and you're not clearing that glass always through, you know, open, honest, vulnerable communication, right? To feel that closeness, it's going to get more difficult to come together in that way. And the longer you've been together, the more smudges there are, usually.

SPEAKER_00: 31:22

Do you know what the smudges are? What are they created by?

SPEAKER_01: 31:26

I would think a lot of it is I do. I I I mean, I would say it's a combination of things, but I would think it's a lot of resentment.

SPEAKER_00: 31:37

It's judgment.

SPEAKER_01: 31:40

Or judgment. Why do you say judgment?

SPEAKER_00: 31:43

Well, we judge our partner, right?

SPEAKER_01: 31:46

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 31:47

Right. So so, I mean, it's a normal thing to judge. We all judge. Our partners judge us too, right? But when we judge our partner, like he shouldn't have done that, he shouldn't have said that, or if he loved me enough, he would do this instead of that, right? He came in the house and he didn't even, you know, give me a kiss and he walked past me. So um, I don't know, I'm not important to him. Right. We judge, we start to have negative judgments about our partner, right? The very things that felt cute in the beginning of the relationship, we did, we didn't, it was kind of cute. Like we you we would see them with rose colored glasses. Oh, yeah, they can't do anything wrong, and even if they did things that uh we don't do, they were kind of cute, right? But now the same things drive us crazy. Why do why is that? Because the person didn't change, they're still doing the things they used to do that you thought were cute. Our judgments about it have changed. What we tell ourselves that means has changed. Because our our our thoughts about our partner changed, that's why our feelings change. If we can accept this person for who they are and who they've always been, without telling ourselves what it means that they are this way, especially what it means about us, um the relationship is going to not have so much uh friction.

SPEAKER_01: 34:35

So then when you work with women and you help them to develop or cultivate uh maybe I don't know if the word healthier relationship around sex would be or with sex, uh, do you um include self-pleasure as one of those I guess it would okay because I know that for me um in the same court, you know, that was a big piece of it, is just learning to get comfortable on my own was like key. If I can't even, if I can't even take the time for me, why could I receive from someone else for that equal amount of time or less? I mean, whatever.

SPEAKER_00: 35:30

There's so many benefits of of self-pleasure in this process of learning to develop a more positive relationship with sex, right? Because masturbation is for your own pleasure. There is no other person involved, no need to worry about somebody else's feelings. So you're left with yourself. And your thoughts about sex and yourself will show up in masturbation. It's a great learning experience, right? How you feel about your body, how you feel about um uh sex and the purpose of it, or what it means to take a long time, like all of the drama, this mental drama about sex will show up with masturbation too. A lot more shows up with a partner. It definitely is a step toward learning what feels good, learning our body, right? Learning to enjoy our touch and to not judge the things that turn us on, because a lot of times fantasy is like a story that creates um um sexual energy in our body, like imagination, fantasy, right? Much like reading erotica, um, can be a big turn-on. But if we judge what turns us on and don't allow it to just happen, uh that's another reason why our desire drops so low. Because we tell ourselves this thing should not be turning me on. Why am I reading this story about this by uh or why am I thinking about being tied up when I know in real life I wouldn't want that? I wouldn't allow somebody to like have this kind of control over me. So even if my mind gets turned on in my body with that, I will decline. Therefore, I don't allow myself to experience pleasure or get turned on, because I may have judgments about what it means to be in that, to be doing this. Make sense? Oh yeah. Yes. Yes. So oftentimes that's it's that's why it also becomes so hard to come for women because the other don't have access to their turn ones, they don't know what they are because they never explored them, because they never thought they could, or they it was okay to do so, right? A lot of women just start having sex because they want to please a partner, or they want to make them happy, they want to feel accepted and loved by a partner, and they give sex to make themselves valuable to the other person or irreplaceable.

SPEAKER_01: 38:28

Right.

SPEAKER_00: 38:30

It's not because they're like, okay, I want to I I want to feel good with this person. And maybe that also happens in the beginning.

SPEAKER_01: 38:40

Right, yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 38:41

But if we have mental drama about sex, its purpose, men, and why they like sex, and like we have judgments about men and sex, that will start to interfere in our when we are about to have sex with our partner who we know loves us.

SPEAKER_01: 39:00

Yeah. Yeah, so all this gets in the way.

SPEAKER_00: 39:09

It gets in the way. Our our our relationship with sex, if it's not positive, it gets in the way. Our relationship with men as a concept, right? The beliefs we have about men and sex, the judgments we have about them, gets in the way. Uh, and our relationship with ourselves, if it's not good, our self-confidence, it will get in the way. If we don't like ourselves, and if we don't like our body, if we have negative chatter about our worth and value as a person, it will interfere with our ability to receive pleasure and be comfortable, be open, literally, to sharing ourselves with another person.

SPEAKER_01: 39:59

So aside from masturbation and self-pleasure, which you know, I think also just understanding knowing what feels good in order to communicate that as well with your partner is important, right? If you don't know what you like, um, I also learned that you that a lot of women don't feel a lot, literally. It's like they've gone numb. They've literally turned, and so you can reawaken. I mean, I've I know because I've done it, you can reawaken what you feel has gone dead with you know various modalities like the JDEG or you know, deamoring with uh like a Yoni must uh wand and and such, um, because I think that is also a complaint. I just don't feel anything, or with penetration, uh, and they focus on the clitoris and there you can have deep cervical orgasms, right? Or G-spot orgasms. There are other ways to feel, and I think uh that is something else where um women so they don't even know that it feels good, that it is pleasurable or can be, but that doesn't mean that they can't reignite that.

SPEAKER_00: 41:28

Well, they definitely can, yeah, right. But but if you in order for you to want to do that, in order for you to to reinvigorate that, you have to want it. Yeah, you have to want it for you, right? Because because you value your pleasure, yeah, yeah, yeah. If you don't want it, you're not gonna you're not gonna sexual pleasure, no perimenopause or menopause is gonna hold you back from having your sexual pleasure, right?

SPEAKER_01: 41:59

Exactly.

SPEAKER_00: 42:00

You could find a way to get it back, to increase it again, yeah. But when you never really valued your your pleasure, and you were sort of like having the sex to like for somebody else, and your pleasure was also kind of like not that important to you because if if if your partner focused on you, you got anxious, and you were like, Oh, it's taking a little too long. Is does it smell down there? Is it too you know, am I feeling anything? Am I not feeling anything? Like, what is his experience like? Is he getting tired? Right, yeah, all of that stuff becomes so loud that we're not thinking about our own pleasure anymore. We're sort of like anxious, yeah. And and and we end up saying, Don't worry about me, I'm fine as long as you come. Right? When we have this kind of relationship with our sexual pleasure, then one change that happens, whether it's having a baby and your hormones change, whether it is perimenopause or something, you're sort of gonna feel like, yeah, I don't I don't feel anything down there, or I don't know what to do, like it's just not happening for me anymore. But but you haven't really tried to make it happen because you want it for you, right?

SPEAKER_01: 43:37

Yeah, I mean, definitely desire and wanting that is gonna be key.

SPEAKER_00: 43:42

Yes, yeah, wanting it for you, not yeah, not for your partner. Because sometimes a lot of women will want to like improve their sex life because their partner is complaining about it, and she's sort of just laying there, right? And she's like, Well, I do that because I've nothing happens for me. So they will come in seemingly for the for themselves, but only because he is that successful, yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 44:13

Yeah, so okay, so when so aside from from the self-pleasure, like how I guess there's some more untangling to do as as to even understanding like why a particular individual is, you know, does it go back? Is it, you know, is it a right? So you I mean you're gonna like where does this originate? Because for one, it might be messages that God isn't really child. For another, it could be experiences they have had or not had.

SPEAKER_00: 44:50

You know, so so definite. I'm sorry, I interrupted you. No, no, you're good. So so for I'm gonna say for all women, but I guess that's overgeneralizing. For most women, our upbringing plays a huge role, it's the first reason, right? Uh, it creates what I call socially programmed sexual anxiety, right? And when we have socially programmed sexual anxiety, in other words, ambivalent negative relationship with sex, then we have anxiety before we have it, we have anxiety during it, and after it. When I say anxiety, I mean we might feel guilty, we might feel resentful after we had it, or we feel guilty about non-having. We have drama about it. Drama, right? That's the main, but but that drama comes from socially programmed sexual anxiety and upbringing about um or poor sex education. We don't understand sex well, we don't understand female sexuality, so we just are like deering headlets, we don't know what's happening, we just know that we're anxious, right? Now, if a woman and what woman hasn't experienced some sort of sexual trauma, right? Uh what micro-traumas all of us have had, right? Uh some women have had more than others, right? They have actual sexual trauma, uh, sexual abuse, then you have to like process that and heal that and entangle that in order to improve your relationship with sex and men as a concept. Not all men are abusers, not all men, not all men are looking to take advantage, right?

SPEAKER_01: 46:47

And learning definitely a message that we we we have.

SPEAKER_00: 46:51

Try we get this message, like men are there to take advantage of you and use you. Men want one thing, Bob. They only do one thing, right? So, and you can see that an example of that is I mean, maybe this is a little bit of a tangent, but an example of that is when we ask our partner to speak our love language so we feel more connected and possibly open to sex. Let's say our love language is uh uh acts of service, like our partner doing things for us. Yeah, so we said, so now all of a sudden he's taking the garbage out, he's washing the dishes, he's cleaning the counters, uh, he's doing these things, right? And sometimes we it works, and we're like, oh my god, he really like listened. And for some women, what happens is like, well, I should I shouldn't have to ask, but okay, I asked. But is he doing that because he cares about me and he truly loves me? Or is he doing that because he wants the sex?

SPEAKER_01: 47:56

Right, yeah, I get it.

SPEAKER_00: 47:58

Right, right, right. So we tell him what we want him to do, he's doing it, and then our brain goes like drama, drama, right? Is the is this the right reason? If he's doing it because he loves me, then okay, but is he doing it because he wants the sex, then it's not.

SPEAKER_01: 48:17

Yeah, it's interesting. I've read quite a few books as of recent, and I think that I think men have gotten a bad rap, unfortunately. And I think we don't bring awareness to that enough. Um, a couple of them. Uh David Data's work, The Way of the Superior Man. I don't know if you've read it. Um, and then he also wrote a book called It's a Guy Thing. And I think that there to some degree, there's just a misunderstanding. Of course, you've got what is his name? Um he wrote men are from Mars, Women Are From Venus.

SPEAKER_00: 48:56

I I know. Um Gold Goldman.

SPEAKER_01: 48:59

Uh uh well, I don't know. I don't re I forget who, but you know that it's almost as though women are expecting men to be women, and then you lose like what the man is, right? With this expectation of, you know. That that's the way I see some of it. I see some of it as a loss of polarity, a loss of that magnetic attraction because women uh and the messaging that we've got. And I think so many of our men have been emasculated due to just natural male-driven characteristics, like with the testosterone, um, competitive competition. That's who men are. And some challenge longer than others, some, you know, and I think what we've done instead is you know, we've made these, they're almost like, you know, when we make these statements, men only want one. That's toxic femininity at its finest.

SPEAKER_00: 50:11

Correct. That's another uh, you know, it is top, I call it toxic feminism. Yeah. Meaning this idea that we don't need men, right? It's not good. I don't need sex and I don't need men to be happy, which is true, you don't need to, but rejecting men in order not to feel vulnerable around them or somehow potentially hurt by them is equally not good for you, right? And it's such a big thing that such a big factor for what contributes to women's low libido, this sort of like um covert toxic feminism, yeah, right? Because sex makes us feel vulnerable. If if if it's happening well, you're gonna moan, you're gonna like be open, you're gonna. I'm gonna say words now that I hope it's okay for your listeners. You're gonna be pounded, right? You're going to be sort of like quote unquote at the mercy of someone else, and maybe even surrender for your sexual pleasure, right? But feel so uh grotesque to women that um uh have this toxic feminism mindset that somehow that is appalling to be giving up your control and your you know self for a man, for someone, right? Which so so so so you you see women that are like you know, counting how much sex they're giving and measuring it because he, you know, it's almost like an indirect way of quote unquote. I hope I'm not offending anyone for saying that, but a little bit of a punishing element for sort of like like making sure like we are holding the reins of how much sex is okay, uh, so that he doesn't become greedy or he doesn't become too uh demanding, too. Does that make sense?

SPEAKER_01: 52:35

Yeah, so I guess so. What would you? I mean, and I don't even know if there would be to quantify it, what would be, and I think it's so relative to what would be a healthy level. I mean, right, you've got these things out there. There, I mean, you know, of course, you've got social media, but uh, you know, is it once a week, is it twice a week, is it, you know, I I mean, and who's to say, right? Because every couple is going to be different. But let's say everybody was firing on all cylinders, okay? All cylinders are firing. Then every day, you you know what, and not well, I think I do think I don't know that there's I don't know that very few people whose all cylinders are firing. I know, and that's why I said if everybody was firing on all cylinders and everything was driving and the glass was totally clear, and I think the one thing that we left that is important to be said is uh how our desires would change from spontaneous desire to responsive.

SPEAKER_00: 53:43

Okay, okay, meaning, yeah, especially for women. I mean, spontaneous sexual desire is horniness, responsive sexual desire is getting into it after sex has started or sexual intimacy, yeah. Okay, so you either have horniness before you have sex, that's sort of like this this kind of desire, or you have the other kind of desire or a mix of both. That's like, well, I'm not in the mood, but I know that once we start, I'm gonna get into it. Yeah, right. Both of those desires are healthy, normal. But what happens, we mistake. Mistake is that a word? Responsive sexual desire for low libido. Right?

SPEAKER_01: 54:35

Oh, you said oh a low res low response oh, you said responsive desire for low libido.

SPEAKER_00: 54:40

We have responsive sexual desire, meaning after it's but after our partner initiates and we said, okay, let's give it a try, we get into it. Right. We mistake this for low libido because the hordiness is not present to begin with. Yeah, we tell ourselves this is it's sort of like something is missing, or it's not happening how it should be happening. Right. We think that hoardiness is a prerequisite, okay, or necessary before. And that's a that's just misinformation or lack of sex education.

SPEAKER_01: 55:16

Yeah, but really, I just heard those two words this year, uh, you know, in regards to that. And it's almost uh because I can have both. Right. Because you know, I like 11 a.m. for spontaneous, and that's why I'm feeling like that, you know. But no one's on unless it's it's me, right? Which is fine too, sometimes if I can do that. But if not, at later at different times of day, it might be more of a responsive.

SPEAKER_00: 55:45

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And being allowing both and not shutting down the responsive or telling yourself, well, I shouldn't have sex if I'm not born. Right. Which is oftentimes what happens, right? Right. Yeah. So then you know, you're you're so you're not open and willing to even get turned on. So you decrease your chances of experiencing sexual desire and pleasure because you have this uh thought error or false belief that you should feel horny before you have sex, and that somehow there is an order to which things are happening with, and if it's not happening this way, it's there's something wrong with you. Okay, so so this was a parenthesis because you were asking me something that you were wanted to say, what's what's oh, oh, how much? How much? Okay, well, as you know, there is no right number, right? Um, but what I've seen works, especially for you know, it depends on the stage of your relationship and how much free time and privacy you actually have, but for people, young kids, um I mean it's there is no right way. There is no right way. The other thing that it's huge to mention is uh intercourse is not the only way to have sex.

SPEAKER_01: 57:13

Right, yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 57:14

Yeah, but when we're talking about how often we have sex, sex can be anything non-intercourse related that doesn't require penetration, like oral sex, manual stimulation, mutual masturbation, rye humping, all of those things are sex, but a lot that are a lot less involved and time consuming than intercourse. So sometimes what happens is we tell ourselves I don't have the the time for the five-course meal, so I'm not gonna even start.

unknown: 57:50

Right.

SPEAKER_00: 57:51

If you believe that sex is a five-course meal, like floor play, intercourse, we go, I go down on him, he goes down on me, then we he penetrates and then right, then your brain is going to like if you if you if you just want a snack, but you know if you open the fridge, you're gonna have to have a five-course meal, you're not gonna open the fridge. You're gonna be like, I'd rather start than to have to have a five-course meal. I just want a banana.

SPEAKER_02: 58:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 58:19

Right? So understanding that getting away from this mentality of sex has to end with intercourse, is can be so freeing for couples because not everyone needs to come every time. And or or or like you can take turns, or it can be just a quickie, meaning nobody comes. I don't know. It can be so flexible, yeah, so that our brain doesn't have to like find the time to fit it in if it is intercourse, right? So people's sex life becomes richer and more frequent when they understand this that you maybe today you're having the soup, maybe tomorrow you're having the main course, and on Saturday, maybe you're just gonna have a dessert.

SPEAKER_01: 59:09

Right. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think that's great. Um, because I know sometimes I'm I'm waiting for the five-course meal, right? On purpose too. Right. Because the time has been carved out, or you know, the kids are gone, or you know, there is more time, or as you say, I think you said freedom to have, you know, share that. Yeah, the flexibility, yeah. And not everybody has that. Uh, and I think it can vary again for uh situationally. Um you also so you know, honor your time. I know you offer things for clients, but uh and I know you work right virtually and in person, I think. I don't think but when you have, you know, let's say, and this could this might be too much to unpack, you have that couple who has been together, they love each other, resentments have built up, there's lots of smudges, lots of judgments. Um, there's been some hurt that and sometimes that hurt potentially feels unforgivable, but you're still together, you're still choosing to be in the relationship, or you're just not quite sure you can get back to, right? And you found yourself in this sexless years of sexless marriage. I mean, I personally think there's hope. Oh, yeah. Um and it might be you know, you know, where do you begin with couples in that scenario so that they can get back to that level of intimacy? And I know you know we don't have tons of time, so it's a it's a it's a it's a loaded question.

SPEAKER_00: 1:00:59

But I know there are people out there in in that exact scenario that for sure there are people out there in that exact scenario, but um if if I can find a short answer to that is that when you hold a grudge for someone, you are the one who feels the grudge. Yeah, resentment for something is an internal experience, you are the one who's suffering from feeling resentful, from being angry, for being you know, absent. Yeah, there might be a consequence on the other person, but it does not come without a consequence for you. So if you want to keep giving the consequence to the person that you're upset with, just know that you're punishing yourself equally. You're taking away your own happiness by staying upset.

SPEAKER_01: 1:02:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 1:02:18

So if you go if you do want to feel better, then learning to let go and to sort of think about what has happened in a little bit of a different way, finding ways to take some responsibility for the experience you you had. By that I mean, see, I don't know, people I don't want things to be taken out of context. Sometimes, you know, maybe your partner has betrayed your trust, there was a betrayal or something terrible that happened, like maybe even a financial betrayal. Betrayal comes in also of course, like there was a line, right? Um, that's a little bit of something different, learning to develop trust and to restore that.

SPEAKER_02: 1:03:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 1:03:10

So that has to be healed when there has been a betrayal. Sometimes that's why people just become strangers in a relationship because they haven't healed that. Um but in but in general, what I found helps people is to really be able to see how they have contributed consciously or unconsciously in the very situation that has hurt them. And because when you're able to take some responsibility and see the agency you can have to prevent that from happening again in the future, it's always very empowering and helps people sort of make amends and accept and forgive.

SPEAKER_01: 1:04:00

Does that make sense? Yeah, oh yeah, for sure. It reminds me um when I was reading a book called Uncont uh Conscious Uncoupling, I forget who wrote it, but and and you know, you know, she I think herself is a therapist or a marriage and family therapist, but she also went through her own divorce. Um, and she's like, I don't care if the other person is responsible for 97%. Your focus is on your three. Um, and I think that's really important because I mean there's all it always takes two to tango. And I think it is um, you know, I don't think about that thing, you know, you're pointing out that way, three four three fingers are pointing back at you, right?

SPEAKER_00: 1:04:46

That we do have to take a look at, you know, how we showed up or how have we shown up, what is our our portion, you know, where have we also our portion, but also learning to not personalize everything to make everything about you is also very helpful. It is what this partner does says a lot more about them, right? So learning to separate your worth and value from it from another person's behavior is is really really important, right? They are fallible, they are not perfect, right? They make mistakes and hopefully they learn from that, but maybe they won't. You still gotta do what you need to do to protect yourself if the other person is not going to learn from their mistakes. Absolutely. Having some grace for people to make mistakes, including ourselves to make mistakes, is also a thing that's very, you know, good for relationships.

SPEAKER_02: 1:06:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 1:06:08

So I'm having their own baggage. We all have baggage, they come with baggage. Yes.

SPEAKER_01: 1:06:14

It's funny, and I do think after you know, being 47, uh, the older you uh get, the more baggage. I can see the value in starting off younger, actually, because you accumulate some of the baggage together. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 1:06:32

I mean, what do you mean? What do you mean? Uh being 47 years old.

SPEAKER_01: 1:06:35

It's like a couple who start who begins their journey together as a as like a couple and married earlier in in in life than like 47.

SPEAKER_00: 1:06:46

Uh yes and no. I mean, uh uh I in my 40s, I have a lot less baggage than what I had in my twenties and 30s.

SPEAKER_01: 1:06:56

Yeah. Well, that's interesting.

SPEAKER_00: 1:06:59

Because because I my brain has matured.

SPEAKER_01: 1:07:03

Well, uh, yes, that piece I can understand, yes. Um, but I have less fear of judgment.

SPEAKER_00: 1:07:10

I don't care so much about what other people think. My behavior is not. Controlled by outside things, right? I know that I am responsible for my experience and what I project in the world has to do with how I think about myself.

SPEAKER_01: 1:07:28

Yeah, that's that's all true. I agree with everything that you just said there for sure. Um, so I could see why in that regard. Because in other ways, I'm like, oh gosh, I've got more baggage. It's just more stories, I guess. I mean, but it is true. So uh I know that you see couples virtually online. I know people can follow you.

SPEAKER_00: 1:07:51

I know you had a live webinar this, I think it was this last uh last Monday.

SPEAKER_01: 1:07:57

Yeah. Um, and so you're on Instagram at the libido coach, but where else can people find your work or connect with you? And do you have an online course?

SPEAKER_00: 1:08:10

I don't have an online course. It's a right now, it's a six-month one-on-one program that I take through uh women with low libido and I teach them how to improve their relationship with sex, their relationship with their partnerslash men, and their relationship with themselves. Look so focus is self-confidence, learning to emotional regulation and good communication, and learning all the ins and outs about female sexuality and pleasure and turn-ons, turnoffs, um, just embracing sex as not good, not bad, neutral thing that can be easy. But sex, having sex be easy, that doesn't mean you're gonna have high sex drive. Right? Right. The goal is not to have high sex drive, high sexual desire. The goal in my program is to make sex easy, right? To not have the thing that you dread, yeah, or that you're avoided to have it, to enjoy it, and to be easy for you to have it again because you know there is always something good for you to get out of it, yeah, and to not rely on hoardiness for that to happen. Right.

SPEAKER_01: 1:09:36

Oh, I think it's great. So you so six months one-on-one, and that you meet virtually or in person.

SPEAKER_00: 1:09:44

Uh mostly virtually, I do have a local office, uh, but virtual has become so much more common. It's like it saves people the commute. So even if they are local, they choose to uh meet virtually. But of course, if somebody is located in Rochester, New York, uh, they can definitely come into my physical office.

SPEAKER_01: 1:10:06

Okay, and then where's your website?

SPEAKER_00: 1:10:08

Where do I know the libido coach? Yes, I'm the libido coach. Um, but uh uh the my coaching website is www.newintimacy.com. Okay. And my therapy website is www.betterrelationship.org. Okay. Okay. So there's two ways people work with me. If you are a couple and you're local to New York State, because I can only see couples in New York State. Okay, I do see couples in a coaching um uh in the coaching realm. Okay. So there is a way to work as a couple as a coach. Usually the first part of my like the six-month program, the first couple months it's individual. The middle part usually is a couple. We invite the partner in and we want him to understand what it is that we're doing. We want him to also have a space to talk about his experience as a person with a higher libido in the relationship. There's a lot of feelings, like rejection or feelings of what's wrong with me, why she doesn't want to have sex with me. Yeah, we want to figure that out, and then the last part again is individual.

SPEAKER_03: 1:11:32

Right.

SPEAKER_00: 1:11:33

So all of this is happening before I start my first group, which is probably going to happen um at the beginning of the next year, but it's still a work in progress. I'm I'm not set on the date yet.

SPEAKER_01: 1:11:46

Okay. Okay, and that and all this can be found on your websites, right? Or they can stay in touch with us.

SPEAKER_00: 1:11:55

Yeah, new intimacy.com. Yes. Okay.

SPEAKER_01: 1:11:58

Awesome. Thank you so much. I think, you know, I think that this is an important conversation to have just simply because, you know, we want to make the conversation around sex just easier. And that's not even easy for so many. So um, and I think it's the government institute. I think they said the the the couples who have better communication and easier communication around sex maybe find more satisfaction overall in their in their relationship, right? Being able to have those conversations there are just so important. Um, I think it's one of the most vulnerable ways that we show up. And so if you can't ever talk about it, then you know it's a piece of you that's just staying like, I don't know, like almost would feel trapped to me.

SPEAKER_00: 1:12:48

How can you be connected, right? Right. When you when you're masking, when you're trying to not show what's happening with you.

SPEAKER_01: 1:12:55

Yeah, yeah. So anyway, I um so appreciate your time today. And thank you. This was uh such a fun conversation for me. Yeah, me too. It's uh for me too. So I brand I think we could go on and on. And so maybe we'll in a you know, we can uh you know pinpoint another topic that that um you know would be beneficial uh for another future conversation.

SPEAKER_00: 1:13:23

Oh for sure. I would totally be open to that.

SPEAKER_01: 1:13:27

Okay, all right. Well, thanks so much, and I hope you have a fantastic weekend.